Secrets, truth and misconceptions about Misty water pokemon master goal?

Hello everyone, ever since i joined online pokemon fandom subject of Misty water trainer career was crux of lot of debates. Speculations and random theories over the years.

So i decided to make this thread to help clear out common misconceptions, possibly unknown things to some of you and lack of knowledge related to Misty career of becoming water pokemon master.

Many people believe there was never nothing explained about Misty goal in pokemon anime during 5 years she was main traveling partner coming up with personal headcanons and conclusions, One of ever so popular being how: "gym is way for Misty to become water master", but through this thread im going to present so far known facts and what in reality water pokemon master dream showed and to certain degree implied to envelop:

Which are following:
Fact number 1:
-position of Cerulean city gym leader doesn't and wont make Misty become water pokemon master.

Because if we dive down into the past if this was way for Misty to become water master, than Misty wouldnt leave it in first place and go on journey? Many people seem to forget that Misty was already gym leader from very start when she followed Ash in Kanto as confirmed in 7th episode, "Totodile Duel", third pokemon movie(Spell of Unown when talking with Molly) etc leaving it to pursue goal of becoming strongest water trainer in world as evidenced by Daisy and others, later being revealed to mean becoming water masrer once writers established pokemon anime and direction in which they want to go. Just to be forced to later go back to gym again.

Therefore if gym position grants you such title, Misty wouldn't leave it to pursue her dream, and given how sisters weren't interested in gym leader thing in first place there was no obstacle for her to take over gym at any point from them.
But she didn't; wanting to continue traveling and pursue her water master dream as evidenced in "Gotta Catch Ya Later", most of all she surely wouldnpt act so disappointed when they called her back or when having to take over it due to their incompetemce if gym was path in order to become water master. Complaining over sisters leaving her to do all dirty work and Brock realizing and telling Ash how she wants to continue on with them.

Fact number 2:
Some could say how all of this is irrelevant because Misty took over Cerulean gym. Therefore she "gave up on dream of becoming water master".
Did she? Answer is clear cut and simple NO.

Through course of Original series that was one of her main desires and reasons behind wanting to continue traveling showing how much she adores water pokemon wanting to learn how to use them in best way, revealed how her idol is E4 Lorelei worshipping her and fangirling when they finally met wanting to become that strong one day. In Whirl Cup her burning desire to become word renowned and successful water master was brighter than ever realizing how this is her true calling at end of ceremony.

Going by chronicles writers never implied in any way that Misty gave up on original dreams. Unlike its case with Gary or Brock who changed their dreams Misty took over gym due to plexus of circumstances visibly being unwilling to go back.
If we do analysis of each chronicle episode Misty starred in one by one; there are several facts which fuels thesis how she still wants to become water master and would rather prefer to travel, but at same time she feels its her responsibillity to help sisters out and put on hold her own goals until situation with gym leadership and all chores it drags with itself get resolved.

-This can be noticed in chronicles when complaining to Daisy over not being there to fill in for her and help out shooking head in sadness when Daisy mindlessly run away(dub edit that out for whatever reason, probably because broken relationships and acts of sadness aren't desierable to show to small kids).,

- In episode "Date with Delcatty" in Japan version Misty goes through selfdoubts of what she should do with current situation directly saying ill cite "My sisters are of no use so ill have to stay here doing my best for time being, right Togepi?" lifting head up and looking at sky filled with stars.
Pay attention to above line becasuse it clears up any doubt over main reason behind Misty taking over gym.

-When Misty visited Ash and co in Hoenn after releasing Togetic and returning home she said how she had fun being with them again but has to go back to help sisters out.

- Context of last cameo appearance revealed how Misty still has unfinished business in damaged relationship with sisters as evidenced when talking to Max of wishing that they for once understand her not being able to stand up for herself when they are in question(although she also taught him how we cannot choose out family taking best out of situation, or something similar)being upset and frustrated over Daisy constantly rushing her back home. When she rather wanted to stay with group for longer delaying her return to home, expressing displease of not being able to leave gym even for shorter period of time due to unreliable sisters not having anyone to rely on. In case she wants to travel, catch new pokemon, enter tournaments, develop more effective strategies asnd pursue her dreams of becoming best water expert in world on more meaningful level.

Notice everyone how Misty in "Real Cleffa Hanger" express same disappointment over not having anyone to count on regarding gym and be present as substitute, in similar way she reacted in "Date with Delcatty" displaying how she feels about gym, substitute and not having much choice but to stay for now?

Bringing me to conclusion how Misty always viewed gym as job doing it out of necessity forcing it on herself because of not being able to count on Daisy and others. She felt it was her responsibility to take care of thins,and put her own dreams on hold.
Whole situation with Misty and gym was rather left uncleared and abit convoluted. Because while Misty showed desire to travel when being in Ash and friends company again still containing that fiery spirit of becoming as succesful water trainer as she could be masteriong their use working on becoming stronger, making Corsola ore resistant as battle vs Georgiop showed and being prideful when she tamed Gyarados. At same time Misty showed hesitation and feeking guilt; of contemplating how she doesn't have much choice currently but to stay making best out of it and help sisters to prevent gym(her home)ending closed due to their carefree attitude. Which was testament to her strength and unselfishnessd she posess as individual.

Disclaimer:
Now dont get me wrong., Im NOT saying how Misty in chroicles was miserable and in despair over being gym leader. Because she was shown to enjoy in taking care of her water pookemon, playing with them like Starmie, Psyduck, Corsola, Dewgong etc. Being curious and quirky in discovering what else job of gym leader involves in leaning how to make gym badges, having fun and lot of embarassing situations which made her irked, mad and intimited when Casey or Sakura visited her in hanging out with Tracey. Or feeling proud of herself when she managed to save gym from being shut down showing to Daisy and others how shes more competent than they are.

But at same time feelings and inner thoughts Misty presented in certain episiodes gave away how Misty if having choice to freely leave without feeling concern and guilt over gym being left in bad hands would rather want to travel and follow her own dreams,

Case and point:
Writers left on purpose Misty dreams unfinished and left her future unclear at gym not changing her goals to have way to easily bring her back in case they ever felt need to do it because at that time they werebn't sure in what direction to take anime keeping Misty as backup option in case they ever felt need to furthjer character and her story forward, but since they didn't had any plans to do something with Misty in past is reason why whole situation with older sisters was left unresolved with Misty plots which form story being left to hang in air leaving direction in which things will pan out for her in future undefined and unresolved.

Fact number 3:
Her goal as it was showed in original series is similar to Ash requiring traveling, meeting strong trainers,exploring new regions and learn about pokemon in wild along with advancing it through tournaments/competitions.
Misty herself numerous times through OS stated how she dreams of becoming water master, catch as many water pokemon she can, meet and bond with legendary water pokemon learning about their true strength and weakness along with battling and proving herself to all kind of water experts.

By traveling you have much more options on table in form of being able to explore vartious places and learn about water type by observing them in natural habitat, have chance to catch all kind of them ,meet other strong type specialists like Wallace, Lorelei, Siebold from E4 etc learning about secrets and more innovative battle style.

To become strongest water trainer in world being on pair with E4 members. Who are best mono trainers often being labeled as one type masters(in games every E4 member is labelled as one type master followed with Lance and Lorelei in anime being referred as such as well), with Misty showing clear fascination over Lorelei being her idol.

Strongly insinuating how she has motivations and passion in becoming E4 member herself one day as well. Which would effectively make Misty become first E4 female of water pokemon in history known for her unique style of battling and use of this type.

Bringing me to inference how such level of power creep is impossible to achieve by staying at gym constantly testing people to determine if they showed enough skill to earn badge with large pool of challengers being made of rookies and mediocre trainers which donpt teach you much in first place. In fact when battling against low level trainers gym leader has to lower down their abilities to gove him chance to have fair battle and earn badge not making you learn anything through such matches.
None of gym leaders, but absolutely none became strong like E4 or Frontier Brain trainers are being miles away in skill and strength than leaders are. Even strongest ones like Blaine, Clair or Volkner cannot measure up to such standard with Ash and other challengers being able to bear them, while in comparison when battling E4 no matter how strong Ash became his teams get destroyed.

Best example came from Flint Infernape which was able to destroy all 3 of Ash pokemon without breaking sweat. While Volkner had hard time despite going all out against Ash ending defeated.
Even famous Koga in games prior to becoming E4 and after leaving gym in games spend three years as mentioned in games training(where? its uncleared).
Same applies to Wallace in games, Caitlin when becoming E4 in BW going prior to that on journey to further skills and Misty herself in Gold, Silver, HGSS when stating how she plans to leave gym , travel one day to battle stronger trainers and improve skills. Worshipping coincidence or not just like Misty in anime E4 Lorelee reaching for such kind of power creep.
Leading us to one important conclusion.

By traveling you can develop more efective battle styles, gain more experience and learn about new, more effective ways of battling than it was case at gym where you cant encounter all kind of strong pokemon experts and high level trainers like its case when entering prestiguous tournaments, being taught by other experts about more creative battle styles and meet more trainers which can give you run for your money which are located all around the world.
This was emphasized by Cilan with Ash creative strategy and use of techniques leaving him shocked realizing how by joining him and observing his strategy along with meeting other strong trainers he will be abler to better himself and learn more.

Otherwise, we have to ask ourselves; Why else every gym leader which became or wanted to become something more left gym to improve skills and learn about more creative ways of utilizing pokemon than?

Like Wallace, Fantina, Cilan, Candice(plans to leave promising Zoey how she will achieve goal of becoming champion some day), Roark etc? Because pool of trainers they encounter at gym and strategy they practice there isn't supplying them with enough knowledge and experience to evolve and go on next level as trainer upgrading and putting their battle abilities on higher level.

Fact number 4: and actually strongest one:
Whirl Cup competition.
It was brought up and created as tournament which serve as one of mandatory events every water trainer which dreams of becoming water master needs to enter and win. It was just top of iceberg because whole plot and wording left strong implication how there exists several other events to enter on road of becoming water master with Whirl event being one of them. .

Judging by wording from sea priestess Maya and professor Elm right when Whirl Islands journey began; title of water master means becoming water pokemon expert which has power to understand sea creatures and use them to full potential,being recognized and respected among all water trainers worldwide gaining title of "Alpha Omega of water pokemon" which water heroes used to obtain in ancient times.
In japanese original version going by episodes "Around the Whirlpool!", "Dueling Heroes!" and "Perfect Match!" was consigned as convoluted form of "water pokemon master"(check bulbapedia for veracity of this statement in case of any doubts).

As such Whirl Cup was introduced as one of such competitions where you can gain more experience, make step forward and prove yourself to others being directly linked with water master thing serving as one of benchmarks through which you come closer toward such title.
Just like coordinators have contests they need to win to become top coordinator, Ash has gyms he needs to pass in Misty case in order to become water master there exist special tournaments, procedure which needs to be followed(sanctioned by league committee) being another reason why leaving gym and travel is a must with current position not allowing to accomplish everything needed to obtain such power level and title.

Granted more details and path to achieve title of water master wasnt fully explained and fleshed out afterwards with Misty leaving cast. But Whirl islands gave prelude in whole career on more significant level revealing some of tasks and info of what this goal entails with itself.


EDIT:
Hopefully this wasnt annoying read to any of you and beside explaining some un known details, i created this thread in setting foundation of what other steps, beside mentioned ones above each of you people think may be required but havent been chance to be explored in pokemon anime.

To lead someone toward title of becoming master of water pokemon?
So all of you feel free to be creative and open minded in discussing this. ;)

Agreed fully, DBZ Fan. And as a slight addendum to one of your points:

For those who stated that Misty was only upset at the end of Johto because it meant leaving Ash, I really should remind you that not all of Ash's friends were upset with separating from Ash, certainly not to the level Misty was upset in either case. In fact, including Misty, only three members of the main cast were even upset at having to separate from Ash and the others: Max was probably the only one of the AG cast to be upset at the separation, and Dawn was shown to be slightly sad at having to leave Ash and Brock. Most of the other cast members either weren't shown to be slightly upset at all (Brock during DP, possibly Cilan and Iris), or otherwise were quite glad to leave Ash (Tracey and May, who gave zero indication of sadness or hesitation at even the mere idea of having to leave Ash, also Brock the first time around, maybe Cilan and Iris, as I haven't actually seen their departure), especially when taking into account their goals. And May in particular had her reappearance indicating she more was visiting Sinnoh for a transregional ribbon than Ash being there, and in fact Ash was at best an afterthought. And as noted, even Max and Dawn being upset at their leaving paled in comparison to how Misty took having to leave.

Not to mention throughout her second reappearance in AG, Misty's constantly delaying having to return to Cerulean Gym as long as she could should raise alarm bells that she honestly doesn't even like running the gym (keep in mind that it took at least 17 days, if not 19 days to get from Pallet Town to Cerulean City, based on what was shown from Episodes 1-7.), and that, alongside the other points DBZ Fan pointed out, should preclude any indication that she likes running the gym. She may have had some silver linings (meaning, some things she may have thought were good in an otherwise bad place for her), but that doesn't mean that she either likes it or finds it her calling, despite what the dub indicated.

Oh, and speaking of gyms and strength of character and selflessness, I should really take the time to point out that Brock proved himself to be the exact opposite of those qualities in both his Hoso and the redeux episode during Battle Frontier. Misty may have gotten stuck with Cerulean Gym due to Daisy and her sisters leaving for three months, but at least the only thing Misty had to worry about was making sure a Gym Leader was available as the gym was otherwise completely cool, clean, and safe. With Pewter Gym, on the other hand, what happened to that gym, twice, was a disaster, and each of those times were far worse than what the Sensational Sisters could do with Cerulean Gym, even their leaving it. First of all, Flint let Lola ruin the Gym with those terrible decorations, and she also nearly killed several Rock-type Pokémon with her stupid decision to convert their training holes into a swimming pool, and was even willing to let her continue when she beat him in battle, before Brock made sure to beat Lola. And Lola, throughout it all, actually cared even less about being a Gym Leader than even Misty's sisters did (at least Misty's sisters were implied to have done a fairly good job running the gym and caring for it until they not only lost to their third trainer in a row, but said trainer, Gary Oak, rubbed their faces in the loss, and even after that, at least Daisy actually cared enough about the gym and its Pokémon to retrieve a Luvdisc that was kidnapped from Cassidy and Butch. Lola flat out didn't even care from the start). At least with the first time around, he made sure to make Forrest the replacement Gym Leader. Unfortunately, the second time around, Lola not only broke her promise to not redecorate the gym, but actually had the decorations be even WORSE thanks to some shady painters doing a paint job that looked more like it was the victim of a spraypaint graffiti job. Then she accepted plane tickets from said painters (who, BTW, turned out to be none other than Jessie and James and Meowth who were planning to burglarize the Gym). Despite Forrest being the replacement Gym Leader, he didn't even attempt to stop Lola from ruining this action, nor did he even attempt to challenge the new challengers (Jessie and James in disguise), even though fighting challengers is supposed to be his job. Instead, Brock and Ash had to fight them. Despite these events clearly proving that his family is simply and severely underqualified for leading the Gym, Brock still went on his journey with Ash, irresponsibly not taking back control of the gym, even worse with DP where he initially planned on not even going along with Ash and instead basically being a trucker due the female trucker he hitchhiked with. To be honest, I'm frankly surprised, especially regarding what was stated in Cerulean Blues, that Pewter Gym even managed to survive the inspections when Lola took control, considering Lola's actions in running the gym violated the safety and coolness aspects and thus, zero tolerance or not, would have all but ensured a shutdown. This was actually another reason why I hated how Misty's removal was handled. At least with Giovanni, he could at least bribe the PIA inspectors to look the other way.

This Argument is unstoppable without the help of Animator .
Because Everyone would have different opinion considering the matter.
For example , I believe Water Pokemon Master refer to Pokemon trainer who won Pokemon League and become a Champion Master by using Only water Pokemon.
Thats my theory .
And Just like you think your Theory is right , The same way I believe my theory is correct.
Because any Water Pokemon Specialist who become a Champion Master is worthy of being called the Strongest Water Pokemon Trainer Or True Water Pokemon Master.
Tell me ,
Who's Strongest Water Pokemon Master?
The Common Answer would be , Wallace .
Why ?
Because he's the only Water Pokemon Specialist who become a Champion.
Thats how Its work .

However ,
Pokemon World Tournament has Separate Tournament for every type of Pokemon ! So Misty might become water Pokemon Master if she win the water Pokemon Tournament in PMT.

But
The Anime didn't reveal much about Pokemon world Tournament ! Instate that incompetent BW Director decide to replace it with a STUPID JUNIOR CUP to glorify their stinking LOVE-CHILD TRIP.

Famon said:

This Argument is unstoppable without the help of Animator .
Because Everyone would have different opinion considering the matter.
For example , I believe Water Pokemon Master refer to Pokemon trainer who won Pokemon League and become a Champion Master by using Only water Pokemon.
Thats my theory .
And Just like you think your Theory is right , The same way I believe my theory is correct.
Because any Water Pokemon Specialist who become a Champion Master is worthy of being called the Strongest Water Pokemon Trainer Or True Water Pokemon Master.
Tell me ,
Who's Strongest Water Pokemon Master?
The Common Answer would be , Wallace .
Why ?
Because he's the only Water Pokemon Specialist who become a Champion.
Thats how Its work .

However ,
Pokemon World Tournament has Separate Tournament for every type of Pokemon ! So Misty might become water Pokemon Master if she win the water Pokemon Tournament in PMT.

But
The Anime didn't reveal much about Pokemon world Tournament ! Instate that incompetent BW Director decide to replace it with a STUPID JUNIOR CUP to glorify their stinking LOVE-CHILD TRIP.

Click to expand...

Who says that can't be the same as what DBZ Fan stated? In fact, I also noted in another topic that at least Misty and Iris's goals actually do lead to the endgame credits in the games, while May and Dawn's goals don't. Besides, Prima/Lorelei was definitely a reputable trainer and was clearly strong, so we can and have to go by what the show says about the matter. In fact, I actually recall DBZ Fan, or rather, Pokémon Fan 123 as he was originally called, mentioning Wallace when earlier getting into a debate about what a Water Pokémon Master was and arguing for Misty's return. I'm not sure whether Wallace would qualify as the strongest though. Technically, Ash may be the strongest due to beating the Battle Frontier which, at least in the Emerald guidebook, the Battle Frontier Brains were stated to be stronger than the Elite 4 and possibly even the regional champion.

Though technically, we'd need to take it to the writers or director, not the animators, as they just animate the scenes, while the writers and/or director, you know, actually create the story.

I do have to agree with you over their stupid decision on omitting the Pokémon World Conference, though. Aside from it being something actually from the games, considering Misty was actually in that World Conference as well in B2W2, it also stupidly ruined the chances of actually giving Misty actual, much needed closure during BW (and you have to admit, how they removed Misty definitely wasn't good at all.). They had a golden opportunity to rectify the mistake they made during Gotta Catch Ya Later regarding how they removed Misty (and believe me, even the writers, or at least Takeshi Shudo, acknowledged how Misty was removed was indeed a very big mistake), if not having her rejoin the main cast, then certainly having her at least actually pursue her dreams, and they blew it. Jeez, even Charizard at least now can live at Oak's Lab instead of at Charrific Valley and thus is on reserve among Ash's Pokémon after BW (though I must wonder, what happened between him and Charla?).

EDIT: So... any chance of continuing? I'd make a new post, but then I'd be double-posting.

Sorry for the Double Post, but I just remembered something. Flint (Brock's father, not the E4 member) mentioned that Brock had enough battling potential to actually ace the Pokémon League in Brock's debut episode (before they basically made him somewhat pathetic), so that's another sign of evidence about how Gym Leaders are actually negatively holding back their potential with their job, and thus why Water Pokémon Master simply cannot equate to being a Gym Leader.

Since DBZ fan put a lot of effort into creating this thread and it hasn't received that many replies, I'm ok with bumping it via double-posting.

Okay, thanks. Hope more people can join in.

Well, the long and the short is, they definitely need to make sure Misty actually continues her goal of Water Pokémon Master, even if it isn't a return to the main cast. They definitely need to make sure she at least isn't cooped in a gym anymore, as it's inhibiting her goal.

I might as well point out another thing: Technically, Misty was already Gym Leader at the start of the series (as she explicitly stated she was the Cerulean Gym Leader in "Waterflowers of Cerulean City", and keep in mind this was after she left the gym to pursue her goal of becoming stronger), meaning it would have been impossible for her to have attained her goal by being Gym Leader (why pursue the goal when she already has it in the form of being a GL). And honestly, AG would have been perfect to actually expand on her goal. It's almost as though GameFreak specifically chose Hoenn precisely for Misty to shine in the Anime, and the anime writers blew it. It's currently the only region that's more water than land, not to mention has a villainous team directly tied to water-types or aquatic Pokémon, a major Water-type legendary that directly relates to aquatic Pokémon (Palkia's technically spatial than actually aquatic), plus a movie directly relating to Water Types. And when there's a lot of Water Types, there's plenty of opportunity for Water Type tournaments and leagues, similar to the Whirl Cup.

So I guess before I post I should define a Pokemon master. I define a master as anyone who is able to understand Pokemon, and use them to the best of their ability, without harming them or putting them in danger, as well as being able to use crappy Pokemon to their full potential. So a water Pokemon master is simply a trainer who specializes in water Pokemon, understands them, and uses them to their full potential.
I typically see a gym leader/E4 member as a master automatically (in the games at least), but the anime gives a different spin on their lives, so I'll say at the start, even though Misty was gym leader, she wasn't a master, but by the time she returned to the gym, she was a master, or was at least working her ass off to achieve such a goal.

I really cbf working on a long ass reply since people are going to have their opinions which can't be changed, so I'll just do a TL;DR and be done with it.

- Misty started her journey to become a better trainer, which in turn, helped her become a water Pokemon master. At the start when she was gym leader, she wasn't a master, but at the end, when she was forced to return, she was
- The chronicle "Cerulean Blues" explains this very well. Misty has a fear of Gyarados (logically speaking, we are going to say this episode implied Gyarados to be the strongest water pokemon). Neither her sisters, nor Nurse Joy can control it. Misty over comes hear fears, calms it, and catches it. It shows her taming Gyarados, over coming her fears on how to calm it down, showing everything she learned whilst on her journey (not directly, but it's easy to say that if she didn't start a journey, she wouldn't have all the ideas she uses to calm it). Again in the episode, Misty says she's worried about being the gym leader herself.

If you go back and rewatch that episode over and over it becomes quiet clear she is a water Pokemon master, or is at least using her new found confidence, and capability of running the gym to her advantage or becoming a master. She saved the gym, got over her feat of Gyarados, etc... Even though she isn't the best, she used the skills she learned on her journey to her ability, showing she is quiet capable of running a gym that specializes in water Pokemon.

Basically what I'm saying is that even though you achieve your dream, you can still be unhappy. Misty most certainly (in my eyes, at least) did become a water Pokemon master, learning on her journey how to become a better trainer, and successfully became a water Pokemon master as a result, using the skills she learned. The reason she is unhappy is simply because achieving your dream =/= happiness. Her true happiness lied with traveling with Ash. It's quiet obvious that she doesn't like being gym leader, or would at least want to do something else. But just because she's unhappy doesn't make her any less of a master.

Bobdapeach said:

So I guess before I post I should define a Pokemon master. I define a master as anyone who is able to understand Pokemon, and use them to the best of their ability, without harming them or putting them in danger, as well as being able to use crappy Pokemon to their full potential. So a water Pokemon master is simply a trainer who specializes in water Pokemon, understands them, and uses them to their full potential.
I typically see a gym leader/E4 member as a master automatically (in the games at least), but the anime gives a different spin on their lives, so I'll say at the start, even though Misty was gym leader, she wasn't a master, but by the time she returned to the gym, she was a master, or was at least working her ass off to achieve such a goal.

I really cbf working on a long ass reply since people are going to have their opinions which can't be changed, so I'll just do a TL;DR and be done with it.

- Misty started her journey to become a better trainer, which in turn, helped her become a water Pokemon master. At the start when she was gym leader, she wasn't a master, but at the end, when she was forced to return, she was
- The chronicle "Cerulean Blues" explains this very well. Misty has a fear of Gyarados (logically speaking, we are going to say this episode implied Gyarados to be the strongest water pokemon). Neither her sisters, nor Nurse Joy can control it. Misty over comes hear fears, calms it, and catches it. It shows her taming Gyarados, over coming her fears on how to calm it down, showing everything she learned whilst on her journey (not directly, but it's easy to say that if she didn't start a journey, she wouldn't have all the ideas she uses to calm it). Again in the episode, Misty says she's worried about being the gym leader herself.

If you go back and rewatch that episode over and over it becomes quiet clear she is a water Pokemon master, or is at least using her new found confidence, and capability of running the gym to her advantage or becoming a master. She saved the gym, got over her feat of Gyarados, etc... Even though she isn't the best, she used the skills she learned on her journey to her ability, showing she is quiet capable of running a gym that specializes in water Pokemon.

Basically what I'm saying is that even though you achieve your dream, you can still be unhappy. Misty most certainly (in my eyes, at least) did become a water Pokemon master, learning on her journey how to become a better trainer, and successfully became a water Pokemon master as a result, using the skills she learned. The reason she is unhappy is simply because achieving your dream =/= happiness. Her true happiness lied with traveling with Ash. It's quiet obvious that she doesn't like being gym leader, or would at least want to do something else. But just because she's unhappy doesn't make her any less of a master.

Click to expand...

If that's what the definition of what a Pokémon Master is, why is Ash still continuing to pursue leagues? He could retire and just become a gym leader by your definition, yet he continually insists that he go for the next league in order to become a Pokémon Master. Heck, Mewtwo was explicitly referred to as a Pokémon Master in the first movie, and he was pretty much the absolute strongest trainer (and Pokémon) out there.

So no, I have a huge amount of doubts that Misty actually achieved her goal. If that was achieving her goal, Ash doesn't even need to pursue the leagues. All he needs to do is become a Gym Leader, and presto, he's an instant Pokémon Master. Don't forget that Lorelei/Prima was considered closer to being a Pokémon Master than the Gym Leaders.

weedle_mchairybug said:

If that's what the definition of what a Pokémon Master is, why is Ash still continuing to pursue leagues? He could retire and just become a gym leader by your definition, yet he continually insists that he go for the next league in order to become a Pokémon Master. Heck, Mewtwo was explicitly referred to as a Pokémon Master in the first movie, and he was pretty much the absolute strongest trainer (and Pokémon) out there.

So no, I have a huge amount of doubts that Misty actually achieved her goal. If that was achieving her goal, Ash doesn't even need to pursue the leagues. All he needs to do is become a Gym Leader, and presto, he's an instant Pokémon Master. Don't forget that Lorelei/Prima was considered closer to being a Pokémon Master than the Gym Leaders.

Click to expand...

I said that's what I personally define a Pokemon master as, not what a Pokemon master is on a universal scale. Like I said in my post, and several times on this forum - I already consider Misty a water Pokemon master in my eyes, because I see the development her character has gone through, and see her as achieving her goal. Of course other's are going to disagree, and that's fine, because no one has an actual definition of what a master is.
According to Bulbapedia;

Bulbapedia said:

In response to an email sent to Pokémon.com's mailbag, Pokémon.com posted the following:
"I'm very sorry, but the Pokémon Company does not answer questions of this nature. It is the intent of the Pokémon creators that such questions be left to the imaginations and interpretations of Pokémon fans, adding more excitement and mystery to the Pokémon universe."

Click to expand...

I, for one, did actually define what I think a Pokemon master is in my own words, which few people in this thread have done so, so how is it possible I'm able to understand their views/opinions on the topic when they've done little to actually provide what a Pokemon master is, specifically. Of course someone else's opinion is going to be totally different to mine, that's what an opinion is. But I don't see how anyone else can say Misty isn't a Pokemon master when most have failed to provide their own definition. Please read my posts properly before you shove that snarky attitude down my throat. Thank you :)

Ash =/= Misty.

I did say that I only really considered Gym Leaders and E4 members Pokemon masters in the games, last time I checked, Ash isn't in the games, so no, him becoming a gym leader wouldn't automatically make him a Pokemon master, because like I said, in the anime, we see their lives more closely, so you can make more of an interpretation of what their intentions are. Ash being a Gym Leader in the anime wouldn't make him a Pokemon master for several reasons. Namely because he's never actually shown any real/on going interest in the position (correct me if I'm wrong), so simply him becoming a gym leader would be more of a... forced situation/plot device (ie; realizing he isn't ready to be a gym leader yet and still has a lot of work to do). Ash is a protagonist and mentor for the young viewers of the show, which is why he hasn't become a master yet. Furthermore, I also said that they should be able to understand Pokemon, and the anime shows Ash constantly learning about new Pokemon, which is exactly right, because he is a mentor for younger viewers watching the show (like I mentioned previously). Once Misty has traveled through all regions thus far, and been a part of the main cast for 17 seasons, then you can make exact comparisons between her and Ash. Until then, Misty is a Pokemon master, and Ash isn't imo.

To Bobdapeach: Main flaw within such argument is that anime already gave clear exact definition of what water pokemon master is; strongest water pokemon trainer in world learning how to use water type to full potential. If Misty isnt strongest or among top strongest water expert out there how can she be water master?

Your perceiving Misty goal as artificial selfproclaimed title for which there doesnt exist any official procedure and tasks you need to accomplish in order to earn right to carry such name.

But by that logic of pokemon master being any trainer which is good at understanding their pokemon and using them to maximum of their abilities Iris would be dragon master long time ago.

Portrayed as battle prodigy in BW series which defeated several trainers older than her. Showed to have ability to read dragon pokemon feelings and sensing their fears and anxiety. Which was demonstrated through several pokemon like Deino, Emma Druddigon and Dragonite she caught.

Most of all beng recognized as skilled and capable of unlocking huge strength of dragon pokemon by several dragon experts at high positions like Clair, Drayden or Cynthia. Showing evidently in her gym match vs Clair high level of connection between her and Dragonite becoming so much synchronized that she could feel its pain battling like one.

Displaying closer connection and understanding of her pokemon thoughts and motives than even Misty did with her water pokemon.

Yet Iris was specifically portrayed despite all of this how she still has long way to go before earning right to be titled dragon master.

Being prestigious title explained to be given by elders from dragon village who showed immense amount of skill and understanding of dragon species.

Ash through his journey managrd to unlock power of several of his pokemon. Used them in best possible way avoiding to end up hurt or be in danger such as Sceptile, Charizard when he earned his thruist and respect. Infernape etc. He won several tournaments, became Orange league champion, conquered Battle Frontier, end up ranked at high places at pokemon league making notable progress.

But as evidenced he still didn't came even close to title of becoming pokemon master. With Lucian in DP clearly saying how after winning regional league there is champion league comprised of defeating E4 members and champion. Serving as just ONE step which brings you closer toward master title.

In Misty case it was specifically showed during Whirl islands archipelago how there exists taskl, prestigue water tournamnents and challenges licensed by pokemon league committee she needs to win and overcome in order to earn official title of water pokemon master.

During Whirl islands it was clearly stated how winner of tournament gets title "Alpha Omega of water types"being stated by prof. Elm and later sea priestess Maya how "water heroes"(in japanese convoluted form of water master) in past were called by that name, being obviously one of steps someone needs to enter and fulfill to gain that title. Wining one tournament wont make you master, but it is one of steps which brings you closer, so entering water tournaments like Whirl Cup showed to be directly connected with Misty dream.

"Around the Whirlpool" Misty dreams of becoming water master, than conviniently prof. Elm informs them how there exists Whirl Cup explaining how winner becomes "Alpha omega"(beggining and end to water pokemon). Something Misty eagerly accepts subscribing still fantasizing about becoming master of water pokemon.

Just to hear more about this in "Dueling Heroes"when sea priest Maya talks about water pokemon expert, "sea heroes" (Japanese water masters)which knew ins and outs of water types with title winner obtains in Whirl Cup being form of water pokemon master , one of steps they in past obtained before fulfilling this dream.

Whirl Cup was directly connected with Misty water master career since it dug deeper into that mentioning whole water master thing and expertize about water types previous water experts used to have.

So problem with your theory of Misty becoming water master by taking over gym of which she was already leader when traveling with Ash directly clash with what pokemon anime established.

There is also problem on no matter how you spin this Misty dont know how to use water okemon to full potential or reading their emotions to the point of realizing properly and coherently their desires, insecurities, fears and nature.

This was clearly evidenced by her pokemon like Psyduck with several trainers during travels she had with Ash pointing out that flaw. With mr. Kenzo in pokemon chronicles where Mist learned to make gym badges scolded Misty making her ashamed of having water pokemon which cannot swim nor battle.

Realizing he is right but lacking required knowledge and selfcontrol in coming to understand her pokemon problems fixing it at that point.

But other pokemon as well which while powerful definitely showed to have alot more to be learned to become stronger battlers. Like her Politoad which gets carried away with cheerleading, Horsea, her Goldeen which never had chance to unlock full strength and agility as aquatic pokemon etc.

Most of all mega evolution which was introduced in Kalos literally explains how this is ultimate test in asessing amount of love, understanding and bond created by trainer and their pokemon. With only those who have highly developed relationship with their pokemon working like one in battle through teamwork would be capable of inducing transformation in their pokemon exceeding their limitations becoming stronger, faster and more resistant than ever bedore.

Such traners through mega evolution proves they learned how to unlock hidden strength in their pokemon using them to maximum of their abilities. Which once again Misty obvioiusly did not accomplished having Gyarados with who while build impressive relationship earning his respect didn't learned how to unleash full power being capable of mega evolving.

So she didnt learned how to use her pokemon to full potential.

Last but not the least in games only E4 members are titled type masters, but not gym leaders.
With several of them such as Lorelei and Lance being titled in anime as ice master and legendary master of dragon types.

Misty stated in pokemon series how she idolize E4 Lorelei being like her hero. Hoping she will become that powerful and honored as water expert one day too pleading that Loreleri trains her during time she met her with Ash.

With Misty game counterpart also worshipping Lorelei from E4 stating she will leave gym to travel, improve skills and battle stronger trainers dislaying intentions of becoming more than gym leader possibly reaching E4 rank. Later in BW2 games in World tournament already leaving gym to travel and stating she dreams of meeting and battling all kind of powerful, highly renowned trainers defeating them.

In anime, but games as well E4 members are best trainers specializing in specifc type of pokemon. They ase recognized and acknowledged for ability to extract full strength of single pokemon type on surface, truly understand its nature and develop most effective strategies for type specialist.

Being thus best mono trainers in world beside champions which achieved even higher positions through use of one pokemon type like Wallace.

What did Misty consecutively stated over and over again when traveling with Ash and afterwards? How she wants to become strongest water trainer in pokemon world showing everyone how unique, beautiful and strong water pokemon are making name for herself on trainer scene and learning how to master their use by becoming water pokemnon master.

So if E4 and champions soecializing in water sopcies like Wallace, Lorelei or Siebold(who ns first pure water elite trainer ever introduced in XY games)are best water experts in world and Misty strives to reach such heights.

She definitely cannot be considered to be water okemon master in current shaoe and form. Nor she was ever addressed by that name or even implied to be close toward such position.

With her disappointment and displease of needing to go back to gym and fill in for lazy sisters boviously not being just because of Ash, but also due to rather wanting to travel and explore world, meet all kind of new water pokemon and do more substantial progress toward dream of becoming water pokemon master which with all said and explained above simply cannot be achieved at gym. Not being enough.

Bobdapeach said:

I said that's what I personally define a Pokemon master as, not what a Pokemon master is on a universal scale. Like I said in my post, and several times on this forum - I already consider Misty a water Pokemon master in my eyes, because I see the development her character has gone through, and see her as achieving her goal. Of course other's are going to disagree, and that's fine, because no one has an actual definition of what a master is.
According to Bulbapedia;


I, for one, did actually define what I think a Pokemon master is in my own words, which few people in this thread have done so, so how is it possible I'm able to understand their views/opinions on the topic when they've done little to actually provide what a Pokemon master is, specifically. Of course someone else's opinion is going to be totally different to mine, that's what an opinion is. But I don't see how anyone else can say Misty isn't a Pokemon master when most have failed to provide their own definition. Please read my posts properly before you shove that snarky attitude down my throat. Thank you :)

Ash =/= Misty.

I did say that I only really considered Gym Leaders and E4 members Pokemon masters in the games, last time I checked, Ash isn't in the games, so no, him becoming a gym leader wouldn't automatically make him a Pokemon master, because like I said, in the anime, we see their lives more closely, so you can make more of an interpretation of what their intentions are. Ash being a Gym Leader in the anime wouldn't make him a Pokemon master for several reasons. Namely because he's never actually shown any real/on going interest in the position (correct me if I'm wrong), so simply him becoming a gym leader would be more of a... forced situation/plot device (ie; realizing he isn't ready to be a gym leader yet and still has a lot of work to do). Ash is a protagonist and mentor for the young viewers of the show, which is why he hasn't become a master yet. Furthermore, I also said that they should be able to understand Pokemon, and the anime shows Ash constantly learning about new Pokemon, which is exactly right, because he is a mentor for younger viewers watching the show (like I mentioned previously). Once Misty has traveled through all regions thus far, and been a part of the main cast for 17 seasons, then you can make exact comparisons between her and Ash. Until then, Misty is a Pokemon master, and Ash isn't imo.

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Regardless, DP did in fact indicate that doing Pokémon Leagues and beating the regional champ actually WILL make Ash a Pokémon Master, or at least was a step in the right direction. And honestly, they shouldn't even bother with stating it if they aren't going to define it. And let's not forget Mewtwo Strikes Back, where Mewtwo was explicitly labeled to be the World's Greatest Pokémon Master, and more than proved the veracity of this claim despite being a Pokémon. All of this would point towards being the absolute strongest in the world, in addition to caring for and understanding Pokémon. And as DBZ fan stated, even in the games, only the Elite 4 and Champion are actually called "Masters." Gym Leaders are bottom of the rung. And BTW, even in AG and DP, it was made clear that he was still trying to pursue his goal of Pokémon Master, and has not achieved it yet.

And also, Ash technically is from the games (he's based on the player character from Red, Green, Blue, and Yellow, plus Red from Gold, Silver, and Crystal, who himself IS the character from the aforementioned games, and either way, since Yellow is derived from the anime, yes, Ash actually IS in the games even if you argue that he wasn't in Red Green or Blue.), so that's another thing to point out.

Diantha told Korrina that even a Gymleader can be a Champion.
As for Traveling being essential for become strong , That nothing more then ********.

The Anime make fuzz about Traveling because It need Ash to keep on Traveling to carry on the Story . If the Anime ever need Ash to stay in a ''Battle-Academy'' then they will say that Training & Battling in that Academy will make Ash even stronger then he will ever be by traveling.

Truth is , A Character's Strength depend on the People in charge of show , Not on Traveling .
If They doesn't want Misty to be stronger then she will never be strong even if She follow & travel with Ash forever .
But if they want Misty to be Overpowered Character then she will be incredibly strong by training in the Gym.
As I see now ,

Misty were her weakest when she traveled with Ash ! Most of her Pokemon's performence in Battle sucked and she really wasn't more then Average trainer . Only 2 of her Pokemon were good (Poliwhirl & Corsola)
But She gotten really strong after she became a Gym-Leader !

As for DBZ Fan Idea about Mini-Water Tournament or more Whirl Cup , Does anyone really think Writers gives a dam crap !
There Noway those writers would create Mini-tournament and more Water related competition for Misty . She's nothing more then a Side-character to them.

They didn't even bother to explain Brock's Job as Pokemon Breeder ! At the end , They just change his goal to Pokemon Doctor and Send him Home .

Same happen with Clian & Tracy . Even Iris's development sucked even though she's the Future Champion of Unova.
Misty isn't playable character such as May or Dawn ! And Her popularity mean Nothing .
Just like Ash's Popularity mean nothing! Hack , He not even allow to win Any Individual Tournament that least for more then 2 episode
He can't even get a Mega-ring while all other new Pokemon Protagonist getting one (X & Alain)
Its proved in BW series that Gym-Leader can be Type Master ! Writer will do the same with Misty as Well.

At the end of the series , Misty will be walking in the street while people referring her as One of the Strongest Water Pokemon Master & Gym-leader.
How & When will be for us to imagine !!!

PS : I didn't Forgotten Psyduck ! However Psyduck never gone though any Development at all .
It was still unable to swim and Perform any other attack ! It always remain a Comic relief Pokemon that become really OP when its Headache increase .
Goldeen never won a Battle , Horsea was always weak , Starmie can't stand after taking 1 hit and Staryu Performance was average.

Famon said:

Diantha told Korrina that even a Gymleader can be a Champion.
As for Traveling being essential for become strong , That nothing more then ********.

Click to expand...

Yes, but in order to even become a champion, one has to challenge the various Gym Leaders, then win the league, then challenge that Elite 4 and beat them, then finally fight against and beat the regional Champion. You can't do that if you're just a gym leader, as that implies you are supposed to actually go out there and travel.

The Anime make fuzz about Traveling because It need Ash to keep on Traveling to carry on the Story . If the Anime ever need Ash to stay in a ''Battle-Academy'' then they will say that Training & Battling in that Academy will make Ash even stronger then he will ever be by traveling.

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Yeah, and they could have easily just replaced him way back in Battle Frontier, and have a new guy travel. Guess what, they don't do that.

Truth is , A Character's Strength depend on the People in charge of show , Not on Traveling .

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Regardless, what is stated IN THE SHOW makes clear travelling is the only way to truly get stronger. It's what was stated with Water Pokémon Masters, regular aspiring Pokémon Masters, heck, even Brock in his debut episode.

If They doesn't want Misty to be stronger then she will never be strong even if She follow & travel with Ash forever .

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They removed Misty only because they basically were forced to choose between her and Team Rocket, and frankly, they made the wrong choice. And besides, she actually proved to be strong while with Ash.

But if they want Misty to be Overpowered Character then she will be incredibly strong by training in the Gym.

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No, there's no sign that she actually got stronger by becoming a Gym Leader (In case you've forgotten, her getting Gyarados was NOT due to her becoming a Gym Leader, it was because she had to conquer her fear of it). And if Misty was kept on the show, they probably would have her conquering her fear anyways.

As I see now ,

Misty were her weakest when she traveled with Ash ! Most of her Pokemon's performence in Battle sucked and she really wasn't more then Average trainer . Only 2 of her Pokemon were good (Poliwhirl & Corsola)
But She gotten really strong after she became a Gym-Leader !

Click to expand...

You forgot Staryu, considering it beat Ash's Butterfree and was pretty much a powerhouse. And BTW, she actually managed to fight Molly toe-to-toe in the third movie, and considering that Molly's Pokémon and to a certain extent Molly herself were basically the same as Mewtwo's cloned Pokémon from the first movie as well as the Mirage Pokémon in the 10th anniversary special, that's DEFINITELY a very impressive feat (and bear in mind, that was BEFORE she became a Gym Leader). And the only time we actually saw her in action since her departure was in the Mirage Kingdom arc with Gyarados, and again, that is not really an indicator that the gym made her stronger.

Besides, considering how AG and beyond basically butchered Gym Leaders by making them no different than JJM, especially their loss in Episode 3 against a Caterpie, I wouldn't put much stock into her becoming stronger as a Gym Leader.

As for DBZ Fan Idea about Mini-Water Tournament or more Whirl Cup , Does anyone really think Writers gives a dam crap !
There Noway those writers would create Mini-tournament and more Water related competition for Misty . She's nothing more then a Side-character to them.

Click to expand...

Ah, yeah, actually, they would in fact "give a dam crap" about her goal. Or do I really have to remind you that it was the writers who WROTE the Whirl Cup in the first place and actually constantly mentioned that Water Pokémon Master goal, and they gave more details on how that goal is to be achieved and the symptoms of it than even Ash's goal.

They didn't even bother to explain Brock's Job as Pokemon Breeder ! At the end , They just change his goal to Pokemon Doctor and Send him Home .

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Okay, first off, what is there to explain about his being a breeder means? Maybe I should remind you that a breeder is someone who, you know, actually breeds Pokémon. Think those day care centers in the games. Now, other than Happiny and Togepi, I will admit that they didn't actually focus on his breeder goal, but I think common sense would dictate what the goal actually amounts to.

Same happen with Clian & Tracy .

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Actually, Tracy's goal was pretty much stated: He wanted to work for Professor Oak. And he got that goal accomplished starting with Johto.

Even Iris's development sucked even though she's the Future Champion of Unova.

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Yeah, and her goals were similar enough to Misty's.

Misty isn't playable character such as May or Dawn ! And Her popularity mean Nothing .

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Actually, she technically is (Pokémon Puzzle League, anyone? She was playable in that. Granted, it was in vs. mode only, but still). And considering Brock's popularity was enough to bring him back, it most certainly means something with Misty.

Just like Ash's Popularity mean nothing! Hack , He not even allow to win Any Individual Tournament that least for more then 2 episode

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Ah, Orange Islands and Battle Frontier? Those were tournaments that last for more than two episodes. Sure, he ended up continuing his journey anyways, rendering the wins pointless. but it doesn't change the fact that he actually won them. Also, BW was actually the most loathed version of Ash. That one is probably the closest Ash will ever get to entering the Scrappy Heap, thanks to some stupid decisions the writers made, so don't even mention Ash's popularity. In fact, it was bad enough that XY was even mentioned to be the time Ash actually was rescued from the scrappy heap in TVTropes.

He can't even get a Mega-ring while all other new Pokemon Protagonist getting one (X & Alain)

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It's still too early to tell. Now, if X&Y ends and Ash still hasn't gotten one, then we're talking.

Its proved in BW series that Gym-Leader can be Type Master ! Writer will do the same with Misty as Well.

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Except those Gym Leaders are strongly implied to have gone out and travelled, fought other Gym Leaders, then fought in the Pokémon League, won that, fought the Elite 4, then fight and defeat the reigning Champion to become Champion themselves (since that's the only way beyond some sort of academy to actually do that kind of stuff). They didn't get the position by just sitting at a gym. Are you really that dense, pardon my bluntness?

At the end of the series , Misty will be walking in the street while people referring her as One of the Strongest Water Pokemon Master & Gym-leader.
How & When will be for us to imagine !!!

Click to expand...

Yeah, and she'd still need to actually travel, whether it be with Ash or not, for her to actually accomplish this. Heck, even Flint, Brock's dad, strongly implied that the gym was actually negatively affecting Brock's potential and that he needs to actually travel to actually meet his potential (this was right after Ash's loss against Brock in his debut episode, BTW. He basically stated that Brock's potential was enough that he actually could go challenge the Pokémon League if he so desired, but largely stayed behind at the gym to raise his siblings after his parents abandoned them, with Ash implying that Brock honestly should pursue the leagues if he was that strong, which really gives the implication that GLs while strong in their own right, are definitely not going to amount to Champion or even Elite 4 levels if they stay at the gym.).

PS : I didn't Forgotten Psyduck ! However Psyduck never gone though any Development at all .
It was still unable to swim and Perform any other attack ! It always remain a Comic relief Pokemon that become really OP when its Headache increase .
Goldeen never won a Battle , Horsea was always weak , Starmie can't stand after taking 1 hit and Staryu Performance was average.

Click to expand...

Yeah, and Movie 3 had Misty going toe-to-toe against Molly, who was using what effectively amounted to hacked Pokémon (and for the record, "average" Pokémon can't even fight hacked Pokémon). And she actually got Top 8 in the Whirl Cup, which is definitely not something you can dismiss. And technically, Goldeen never actually battled, period. Oh, and Starmie was definitely able to handle a few hits from Pidgeotto.

Besides, need I really remind you about how AG and even DP basically butchered their Gym Leaders by making them extremely weak? Losing easily to Pokémon who were total rookies like how JJM lost to Caterpie in Episode 3? Do you HONESTLY want Misty coming out as pathetic as them?! Probably the only GL who was even remotely decent was Brawley (since Ash actually lost to him first time around) and possibly Norman (and even the latter was just so they'd have an excuse for Ash to essentially skip a gym to follow the path of the games, even though Pikachu was clearly more powerful and experienced than him).

weedle_mchairybug said:

Besides, need I really remind you about how AG and even DP basically butchered their Gym Leaders by making them extremely weak?

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This gives me the impression that you have not watched a single Gym battle from AG and DP, yet you talk about them like you know everything about them. Every Gym battle from AG required Ash to create a strategy during the battle in order to win. AG's Gym battles were much like Johto's Gym battles, in which Ash had to create a strategy on the fly, and won most of the battles on his first try, but there was at least one Gym where he didn't win on his first try. DP's Gym battles, however, required Ash to come up with a strategy before he battles, and many of his battles resulted in a loss. He had to rematch multiple Gym Leaders in order to earn his badges. If you consider that weak, then you must consider almost every Trainer in the anime to be weak.

Anyways, I believe Misty's chances of being a Water type master are up to the imagination of the viewer. We don't know exactly what's going on off-screen, so as far as we know she could be the greatest Water trainer in the world. If you want to pretend that she has made zero progress and hold a grudge on the entire show for something that could have possibly happened off-screen, then that's fine. But I'm going to pretend that she has made plenty of progress and may have achieved her goal already.

Wobbu said:

This gives me the impression that you have not watched a single Gym battle from AG and DP, yet you talk about them like you know everything about them. Every Gym battle from AG required Ash to create a strategy during the battle in order to win. AG's Gym battles were much like Johto's Gym battles, in which Ash had to create a strategy on the fly, and won most of the battles on his first try, but there was at least one Gym where he didn't win on his first try. DP's Gym battles, however, required Ash to come up with a strategy before he battles, and many of his battles resulted in a loss. He had to rematch multiple Gym Leaders in order to earn his badges. If you consider that weak, then you must consider almost every Trainer in the anime to be weak.

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I may not have actually WATCHED AG (I did watch the beginning of DP, though, and I'll concede that Roarke at least DID manage to beat Ash. In fact, I'm slightly more impressed with the DP Gym Leaders than with the AG Gym Leaders, but it's still not enough to actually view them as being skilled at all.), but I can tell you that I've at least read the summaries and reviews, plus Bulbapedia, and frankly, I was not impressed with how the Gym battles were handled. Johto at least had Ash using some of his old Pokémon besides Pikachu for some of the Gym Leaders, and let's be honest, them beating the GLs is at least understandable since some of the Pokémon were veterans. Not to mention the other Gym Leaders did have Ash having to fight them at least twice with his new Pokémon to earn the badge (like Whitney, for example). Actually, maybe Roxanne might be good, since she at least lost to Pikachu, who is a veteran. The rest, however, they weren't good at all. Ash only lost to one Gym Leader, and that was Brawley (I'm not counting the fight with Norman early on because that was basically a cheap way to have Ash go the route of the games instead of doing what he did in Kanto and just going his own route.). And I don't care if Ash made up his strategies on the fly, it doesn't change the fact that those Gym Leaders lost to rookies (barring Pikachu, as he's the only one on Ash's Hoenn team to be an actual veteran) especially on the first try, and thus made them look extremely bad by comparison. Ash also used Caterpie on the fly against Team Rocket (a Caterpie, BTW, that was not only clearly inexperienced compared to Ekans, Koffing, and Meowth, the first two had at least a year's worth of experience, and the latter clearly had enough experience and was dangerous enough to be considered wanted, but thanks to Ash's stupidity in having him fight a Pidgeotto (which, BTW, that same Pidgeotto was also beaten by Team Rocket and they managed to beat Pikachu before it even entered to fight by spitting in its eyes) was pretty much near-death.), and that basically gave them a reputation of them being extremely pathetic trainers not just among the fans, but even in-universe. What happened with AG's Gym Leaders especially is exactly the same thing, and is actually one of the reasons why I HATED AG and consider it the second-worst series (only BW was worse). I also know this was also one of Lizardo's complaints about AG as well, and unlike me, he's actually watched it.

Anyways, I believe Misty's chances of being a Water type master are up to the imagination of the viewer. We don't know exactly what's going on off-screen, so as far as we know she could be the greatest Water trainer in the world. If you want to pretend that she has made zero progress and hold a grudge on the entire show for something that could have possibly happened off-screen, then that's fine. But I'm going to pretend that she has made plenty of progress and may have achieved her goal already.

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No, but if AG's Gym Leaders are anything to go by, I wouldn't put my hopes up that she'll improve at all (Like I said, how AG's Gym Leaders were handled were exactly the same as how JJM lost against Caterpie in Ash Catches a Pokémon due to losing easily against Rookies. They should have made them more like Lt. Surge. That's handling a Gym Leader with rookies done right and one of the few Kanto Gym Leaders to actually be fought twice AND actually win against them in battle.). And besides, it's made pretty clear in the show that she'd need to reach Elite 4 level before she could even begin to actually come close to reaching her goal of Water Pokémon Master, so regardless of how much off-screen improvements she might make, it STILL won't be enough. And need I remind you about Volkner? He arrogantly believed that he was ready to be Elite 4 material, even going as far as to actually hand his opponents badges without even fighting them [which BTW, was one of the few instances where Paul actually had a genuine complaint about the GLs] and he ended up knocked down flat by Ash in battle.

EDIT: And besides, why doesn't Ash become a Gym Leader or, heck, even accept the position of Frontier Brain if that's the way to improve and become a Pokémon Master, let alone a type-specific Pokémon Master?

Famon said:

Diantha told Korrina that even a Gymleader can be a Champion.
As for Traveling being essential for become strong , That nothing more then ********.

Click to expand...

Yes gym leader can become champion, anyone can be. But there exists thing called procedure, teasts and rules required to be accomplished n order to become champion. Such as winning league and defeating E4 along with passing trests poke league committee throws at you.

Hence why Candice promised to Zoey she will leave gym to travel and become champion one day. Wallace left Sootopolis gym to Juan to travel, train and become Hoenn champion eventually etc.

The Anime make fuzz about Traveling because It need Ash to keep on Traveling to carry on the Story . If the Anime ever need Ash to stay in a ''Battle-Academy'' then they will say that Training & Battling in that Academy will make Ash even stronger then he will ever be by traveling.

Truth is , A Character's Strength depend on the People in charge of show , Not on Traveling .
If They doesn't want Misty to be stronger then she will never be strong even if She follow & travel with Ash forever .
But if they want Misty to be Overpowered Character then she will be incredibly strong by training in the Gym.
As I see now ,

Click to expand...

As for traveling not being needed to become stronger your bending rules to your own preference this way, but truth of the matter is that pokemon series canonically proved time after time how gym isn't nowhere near enough to reach level of skill, knowledge and flexibility like ace trainers such as Tobias or Paul, E4 members or champoins have.

Even in games gym leaders which got prompoted to higher prompotion didn't jumped from this position to higher pne just like that. In fact for each case there passed consoiderable amount of time between leaving gym and becoming something higher. Koga left gym spending three years in training and doing things in absence(its uncertain what, but its very possible he went through special taslks and battled stronger trainers/evaluators before being recommended for E4 place.
Wallace prior to becoming champion left gym to Juan going on journey to travel and improve as trainer.
Misty herself in games in Gold Silver openly states she worships Lorelei planning to leave gym and go on journey to improve her skills and battle stronger trainers heavily implying how at gym you dont meet enough strong challengers and amount of experience like you could by hitting road.

Anime expanded on this on several occasions too. Ignoring Paul overconfident and overbearing attitude labeling gym leadwers as pathetic as evidenced when humiliating Maylene, Blaine way back in Kanto expressed frustration over battling mediocre trainers not having much interest in battles until he met Ash viewing him finally as someone worthy enough to be challenge. One of reasons why Volkner got tired of battling was because he was tired of not having any challenge not learning anything from battling regular trainers he meets at gym until he encountered Ash reviving his passion for battling again.
Many of them as we get to see are at said position for their whole life basically(like Blaine,Wattson,Pryce etc), after all this years of battling and training still not being even close to Frontier Brain or better yet elite trainers level.
Reason is coming from lack of experience.
Gym can only get you so far with key for further improvement lying in leaving it to learn new things and improve as trainer outside of it.

Also Misty learned more during travels with Ash than she did as gym leader. Meeting all kind of new water pokemon, battling various water specialists, entered tough tournaments with strong competition learning about new more efficient and innovative ways of utilizing pokemon in battles etc. Just because writers didnt focused enough on Misty career and growth as trainer, does not mean she didnt gained invaluable experience during travels.

For back in day show standards Misty was portrayed as talented, highly adaptive and smart battler imo. She was recognized by many like Koga,Marina,Trinity,Dorian as young and very promising trainer who could come very far one day. Entered various competitions coming very far on first try(such as Whirl Cup, Seaking, Alto mare race, Princess contest), battled several older, more experienced trainers outsmarting them through better, innovative approach, holds position of gym leader already at age of 10, was never that much behind Ash always being around his level when ever they battled each other showing to possess more knowledge about pokemon,type advantage etc giving tips and criticism to Ash and his ignorance during original series.

Misty definitely gained more than lost from her travels.

As for DBZ Fan Idea about Mini-Water Tournament or more Whirl Cup , Does anyone really think Writers gives a dam crap !
There Noway those writers would create Mini-tournament and more Water related competition for Misty . She's nothing more then a Side-character to them.

They didn't even bother to explain Brock's Job as Pokemon Breeder ! At the end , They just change his goal to Pokemon Doctor and Send him Home .

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Whether writers care or not does not change fact how they left Misty dreams completely unresolved and uncleared with ex head writer Takeshi Shudo for OS(rip)expressing regret of not being done more., Confirming how there existed ideas to push Misty character further and her goal of becoming water master which didnt happened with decision of replacing her being already made.

However ill just say this. Its never too late to revive character and do contnuation of its story, characterization and plots(this case Misty)in case writers develop interest, motivation and reconsider if return of mega popular characters like Misty could help improve pokemon series or not.

Its proved in BW series that Gym-Leader can be Type Master ! Writer will do the same with Misty as Well.

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If your referring to Drayden, than you also have to keep in mind how it was explained in several BW episodes how title of dragon master is given by elders from dragon village to those who prove themselves worthy enough tio earn such prestigious position.

If jumping to gym leader place would make someone instantly dragon master Iris would accept Drayden offer to become new Opelucid gym leder. But she didnt continuing to travel, catch new dragons, meet other dragon specialists like Clair battling her in Johto. Following legendary dragons such as Rayquaza, entering tournaments and honing skills to become stronger. Not being known what tasks, tests and possible competitions Drayden needed to enter and pass to be given title of dragon master from elders of dragon village.

Needless to say truth of a whole is not true of all of its parts.

Because you see it was established in anime how there exist different meanings for one type masters. Like "Water master" being explained to be strongest water pokemon trainer in world with prestigious title being given to those who proven themselves worldwide among other water trainers,while with Iris goal it was showed how "dragon master" means specific title which is given to those from dragon village who have proven themselves to be worthy of it by having immense knowledge and expertise about dragons.

As such with Iris career as showed with Drayden you can be both gym leader and dragon master. But with Misty career which aims to be strongest water trainer in world with water based events showing how there exist specific tasks to conquer like coordinators do with contests gym position won't make her fulfill her quest. Especially when she was gym leader before meeting Ash returning back only because of useless sisters.
Seeing how in games E4 Siebold is labelled as weater master gives pretty string iundiucation how becoming E4 member would mean becoming type master as well. With best nmono trainers in world being E4 members with Misty actually stating she wants tio become like her idol Lorelei from E4. Renowned and powerful water expert one day just like she is.

You see dragon and water master are similar in name sense. But in meaning and what is needed to accomplish it, they are quite different from one to another. Similar how word "light" can have different meanings either being opposite to heavy, or referring to term "bright".Or crane being name for bird or term to describe instrument designed to lift heavy objects usually in ports :)

Goldeen never won a Battle , Horsea was always weak , Starmie can't stand after taking 1 hit and Staryu Performance was average.

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Goldeen defeated James Victreebel in "Stun Spore Detour" episode. Horsea was never used in any official battle being left at gym with Daisy and othes in 60th episode not staying for long enough to see its true power. Starmie has massive potential to become one of most powerful pokemon in Misty arsenal. Being extremely flexible and versatile with its wide diapason of techniques and special abilities it can learn. Such as thunder, ice beam, confusion etc.
Earning its fame in competitive pokemon metagame.

And Staryu is incredibly underrated. That thing proved to be extremely resistant, fast and agile being involved in several rescue missions coming in light of excellent swimmer. It defeated Marina Tentacruel from Orange islands with just one swift(star attack), regularly defeated James Weezing, Victreebel or Jessie Arbok with no problems and in third movie unlike Brock pokemon which were quickly brought on ropes. Staryu holded its own ground against Molly Mantine(bear in mind how because of Unown Molly pokemon were double stronger than they normally would be). Impressively resisting whirlpool and bubblebeam going full on in clash with manta ray pokemon.
It also had very powerful water gun almost knocking down Ash Chikorita in battle for Totodile if it wasnt for luck on time digging heels in ground to alleviate blow. His double edge was possibly strongest attack quickly finishing of opponents with one hit.
That starfish pokemon is one of Misty's best ones imho, and yet incredibly underestimated.

Wobbu said:

Anyways, I believe Misty's chances of being a Water type master are up to the imagination of the viewer. We don't know exactly what's going on off-screen, so as far as we know she could be the greatest Water trainer in the world. If you want to pretend that she has made zero progress and hold a grudge on the entire show for something that could have possibly happened off-screen, then that's fine. But I'm going to pretend that she has made plenty of progress and may have achieved her goal already.

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We dont know full picture of what someone needs to achieve to become water pokemon master. But what is known though is how winning Whirl Cup obtaining title Alpha Omega of water pokemon is one of steps required to conquer according to prpof. Elm and sea priest Maya in order to come closer towartd water master title. Just like in Ash case winning league would push him one step further on his goal of becoming master.

Another fact we know is that water master means strongest water expert in world learning to proficientlyx understand water specied feelings achieving perfect synchronization with them working like one. But as we know best water specialists in world are likes of E4 Siebold, champipon WAllace or E4 LOrelei).With M isty clearly stating she wants to become recognized and honored like her idol Lorelei.

We as fans can interpretate some things to our own according, but we cannot ignore facts , statements and plots writers introduced which very clearly shows how water pokemon master title is prestigious and there exists procedure just like it does for coordinators to become top coordinators in order to achieve it. It simply wasnt explained in depth and detailed like its case with contests due to lack of experience from writers side back than and different formula series followed being more otiented toward Ash than it was case with later gens.

So no mater how we spin this Misty would need to achieve E4 level calliber of strength , power and expertize to be water master material which cannot be achieved at gym not filling you with necessary knowledge, development, tournaments asnd plenthora of new undiscovered water species asnd ways to unlock ther full power)as mega evolution does).

For same reason Cilan left his gym to other brothers and followed Ash(same happened with Clemont) . Realizing when battling Ash how at gym you cannot learn such way of battling, with all kind of obstacles put on road while traveling and unusual events you enter forcing you to come up with creative, out of box solutions to survive and have chance. Rather than sitting in warm, comfy home battling rookies and subpar challengers on daily basis starting to repeat same basic strategy you ate used to apply when testing out beginners.

Weedle_mchairybug brings up good point in gym position not giving enough experience and challenge to become master of certain type with traveling being required. Because while Misty can improve as trainer at Cerulean and there is no denying she did became stronger, to reach higher, elevated level of perception, innovation, resourcefulness and teamwork with pokemon hitting road and experiencing temptations and informations you cannot find at gym is essential to progress further.

Weedle_mchairybug brings up good point in gym position not giving enough experience and challenge to become master of certain type with traveling being required. Because while Misty can improve as trainer at Cerulean and there is no denying she did became stronger, to reach higher, elevated level of perception, innovation, resourcefulness and teamwork with pokemon hitting road and experiencing temptations and informations you cannot find at gym is essential to progress further.

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Yeah, though I'm not so sure if Misty did in fact get stronger at the gym (Her getting Gyarados was technically before Nurse Joy "gave" her the GL position [though why Cerulean Blues had her becoming a GL as if she never was one before despite her explicitly calling herself the gym leader in Waterflowers of Cerulean City in both the English and Japanese versions I'll never know]).

And besides, there's also the question about whether Gym Leaders, at least with Hoenn and onward, are actually strong. Hoenn in particular had only one instance of Ash actually losing against a Gym Leader and needing to rematch them, and that was with Brawley (I'm not counting Norman because, again, his losing to him was simply a cheap excuse to force Ash to go the route of the games because the players can't actually face Norman until after getting four badges despite his gym being the first gym in Hoenn you find, especially when the writers simply could deviate a bit by having Ash face Norman first and earning his badge there like they did in the Indigo League by having Ash fight Sabrina BEFORE Erika when in the games it was in reverse.). Roxanne might be a bit strong since she at least only lost to Pikachu who is a confirmed veteran. The others basically lost to complete rookies (and even the Watson fight was in the gray area, since he used a robotic Raikou to fight Ash and indirectly and unintentionally superpowered Pikachu into giving him a very serious cold). Remember, Ash himself may be a veteran, but that doesn't mean his team barring Pikachu are veterans, and normally seasoned people who lose to complete rookies are not considered strong (in fact, they're considered the exact opposite), like how Team Rocket lost to Caterpie in the third episode, in fact. Like I said before, that's actually one of the reasons why I hated AG (and it already made the controversial decision to force Misty into a gym at the end of Johto even worse, at least in my book, since it basically implied as a result that Misty's so weak that the only time she might amount to anything is if she was a GL and being a literal punching bag to rookie trainers, certainly rookie Pokémon teams, which is frankly just disgusting.).

weedle_mchairybug said:

Yeah, though I'm not so sure if Misty did in fact get stronger at the gym (Her getting Gyarados was technically before Nurse Joy "gave" her the GL position [though why Cerulean Blues had her becoming a GL as if she never was one before despite her explicitly calling herself the gym leader in Waterflowers of Cerulean City in both the English and Japanese versions I'll never know]).

And besides, there's also the question about whether Gym Leaders, at least with Hoenn and onward, are actually strong. Hoenn in particular had only one instance of Ash actually losing against a Gym Leader and needing to rematch them, and that was with Brawley (I'm not counting Norman because, again, his losing to him was simply a cheap excuse to force Ash to go the route of the games because the players can't actually face Norman until after getting four badges despite his gym being the first gym in Hoenn you find, especially when the writers simply could deviate a bit by having Ash face Norman first and earning his badge there like they did in the Indigo League by having Ash fight Sabrina BEFORE Erika when in the games it was in reverse.). Roxanne might be a bit strong since she at least only lost to Pikachu who is a confirmed veteran. The others basically lost to complete rookies (and even the Watson fight was in the gray area, since he used a robotic Raikou to fight Ash and indirectly and unintentionally superpowered Pikachu into giving him a very serious cold). Remember, Ash himself may be a veteran, but that doesn't mean his team barring Pikachu are veterans, and normally seasoned people who lose to complete rookies are not considered strong (in fact, they're considered the exact opposite), like how Team Rocket lost to Caterpie in the third episode, in fact. Like I said before, that's actually one of the reasons why I hated AG (and it already made the controversial decision to force Misty into a gym at the end of Johto even worse, at least in my book, since it basically implied as a result that Misty's so weak that the only time she might amount to anything is if she was a GL and being a literal punching bag to rookie trainers, certainly rookie Pokémon teams, which is frankly just disgusting.).

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Well way i see it, Misty became stronger because she was able to get over her childhood trauma stopping to dislike Gyarados species which empowered her character. While managing to earn outrageous and disobedient pokemon respect and thrust for much shorter time than Dawn did with Mamoswine, Iris with Dragonite or even Ash with Charizard.

Her increase in strength can be witnessed in Misty Gyarados learning flamethrower under her training surprising Ash and others, getting Luvdisc and her Corsola seeming more resistant taking a lot more hits than usual before using recover against Georgio delcatty.

Speaking of "Cerulean Blues" saying Misty "became gym leader", thats English dub invention(in chronicles dub altered and cut down lot of scenes and dialogue for some reason from original version giving to english viewers entirely different message of what happened in certain episodes). I contacted Dogasu and Dephender from other sites and in Japanese original version it was never said anything similar about Misty becoming gym leader. Inspector Joy only congratulate her on successfully passing test having all skills, knowledge and adaptability required to continue to be gym leader proving she was already one. At end of episode asking Joy to tell Ash how she was able to save gym from ending shut down thinking to herself "Ash you were right, i was able to do this on my own" referring to dream she had when passing out after almost drowning.

Truth of the matter is how Misty is actually very skilled, smart and creative as trainer. But if she stays at gym never going on journey her skills will sooner or later reach position when shell start to stagnate .

Because job of gym leader primarily is in testing trainers to determine if theyre meeting standards to deserve to qualify for pokemon league. When battling rookies and subpar trainers who make large portion of challengers with their loses against them. Heavily indicating how gym leaders in that case either use their weaker pokemon, on purpose lower their potential and use more simple strategy commanding their pokemon to not use attacks at full strength just so that trainer facing them could have decent chance at winning gym badge.

Not holding themselves back only when battling outside of gym or when at gym come experienced veteran trainers who use already well trained, ardent and packed with lot of fighting prowess pokemon.

Hence why any gym leader who strived, strive to become stronger, carry his name on global basis to be acknowledged for skills and gain more experience learning about more innovative way of battling, training and knowing pokemon strength and weaknesses left his place at one point. Wallace, Cilan, Clemont, Brock etc are couple examples. Candice too since she promised her friend Zoey how she will leave gym some day and become champion indicating how she will go on journey.

Case and point:
Misty may be able to train water pokemon at Cerulean, learn something new when battling stronger challengers etc. serving as stepping stone partially. But sooner or later she will reach wall starting to stagnate not having anything left to learn at gym.
Simply because gym leder position doesn't give enough challenge, experience and information to reach higher level of expertize requied to reach Frontier Brain E4 or even champion amount of power.

Like Misty could accomplish when hitting road traveling at some point again. Having ability to expand horizons meeting stronger trainers or other water trainers which dont come to gym,learn new things about water pokemon much more by observing them in natural habitat than she could ever at gym as well entering tournaments to help her to improve skill gathering at one place higher concentration of high level, skilled trainers and allowing to show your abilities and how adaptable as trainer you are to wider group of people on global basis.

Not to mention at gym Misty cant enter water tournaments or tasks someone needs to enter to advance this goal which Whirl Cup clearly established to exist so its obvious why at gym she cant accomplish goal.

Otherwise May and Dawn could just hire top coordinator to teach them everything they could not having need to enter contests. Ash could just open gym in Pallet town and presto become "pokemon master" not having to win league, beat E4 or champion.

However things dont work that way and being gym leader wont make Misty "water master" because just like its case with contests or in Ash case gym battles and winning league. In Misty case there exists water pokemon league for water experts with Whirl islands proving how there exists prestigue tournaments you need to enter and prove yourself on trainer scene in order to come closer toward water master title. With best pokemon type specialists in world being E4 members, not gym leaders, Far from it.

weedle_mchairybug said:

I also know this was also one of Lizardo's complaints about AG as well, and unlike me, he's actually watched it.

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To clarify, I don't think Houen's Gym Leaders were intentionally meant to come off as weak and each of them did give Satoshi a hard battle (remember, Satoshi and Tessen had one fair battle - and Satoshi lost). Most of them actually had a distinct way of battling that allowed them to overcome things like type disadvantages, which is something I found to be a step up from most of the OS Gym Leaders and reflects how much better the writers were getting at doing Pokémon battles. I think the reason they don't come off as strongly as they should is because we rarely got a chance to see what makes them so strong before their battle with Satoshi and what he would have to do in order to beat them. The writers just had Satoshi improvise strategies on the spot in order to win for most of his battles, and it did AG's Gym Leaders a big disservice because they rarely got a chance to demonstrate their threat beforehand.

The majority of Sinnoh's Gym Leaders don't have this problem. Satoshi was crushed in his first battles with Hyouta, Natane, and Melissa (who also defeated Nozomi and Jun in their initial battles, as well) and could only manage a draw with Sumomo. And he got a chance to see Tougan and Denji (who, IIRC, was previously undefeated as a Gym Leader) in action before facing them, so he had an idea of what he was up against before the real battle with them. Most of them also had pretty well thought-out strategies, as well. So while I somewhat agree with you in your assessment of what was wrong with a good amount of Houen's Gym Leaders, I don't really think this applies for the majority of Diamond & Pearl. And it hasn't applied to any of the three Gym Leaders that Satoshi has faced in XY, either, since he was defeated in initial battles with Viola and Corni (who even has a Mega Lucario), and got to see Zakuro in action against Viola. His victories against at least two of them came because he knew how they battled, and built a strategy around that. Moreover, it's not only AG that has this issue. Satoshi had it a bit too easy against most of Jouto and Isshu's Gym Leaders - and the Kanto ones were just poorly-written overall.

Gym Leaders are meant to be strong, because otherwise there'd be no point in setting them up as important obstacles to beat on the way to the League. Takashi has explained that their purpose is to test the strength of the trainers who challenge them, and earning eight badges signifies that one is ready to enter the Pokémon League. I definitely agree that they're not "Masters" (because they have to lose at some point, and Sumomo and Corni - among others - show that even Gym Leaders have a lot to learn) and being Hanada City's Gym Leader doesn't mean that Kasumi has achieved her dream. But I don't think that makes Kasumi weak at all. Just being a Gym Leader means that Kasumi will have an important role to play in the growth of the trainers who face her, and almost certainly means that she's a strong trainer as well. But you're absolutely right in stating that it's not her dream. And since few major character are ever seen achieving their dreams in the anime, I don't believe we'll ever see that happen.