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150+ dead after multiple Paris terrorist attacks, ISIS to blame

  • 5,983
    Posts
    15
    Years
    Russian decisions influence China due to them being SCO allies. If Russia decides it is time for something, China would either have to support it or then find itself in a tight situation. That's what I'm saying, it all depends on China's attitude over an hypothetical situation of Al-Assad being taken down by its opposition not named ISIS. China doesn't want a war, because it'd ruin the way it is growing. However, if the situation for it to take sides is forced, who do you think they'd side with? It's no US for certain.
    Besides, we're in 21s century, maybe the world is looking for peaceful outcomes instead of war.
    PS: and it still depends whether Russia would do all of this because of Syria too.

    The issue with selling weapons to Syria, is that protests occurred all over the world because of that. China kept doing it. Now, the relationship between Syria and China is mostly economic, yes, but the issue is how the SCO allies' thoughts and acts are regarding this. And I don't think China would want to end relationship with them over this issue, and they'd be forced to do it based on what the hypothetical situation I have described above.

    Under the international law, yes. However, it was the first movement of China like that, and US "retaliated" days after. And China didn't like it one bit.
    You can't know the other intents and this might simply heat up a relationship that's already a problem. I'm not saying it matters a lot, but it's a lot suspicious to have said moves being taken for no reason at all.

    Is that the perception that you have in Brazil? Because the SCO is not a military alliance. Compared to NATO, its institutional structure is very weak. Right now, they're dedicated to be non-aligned, non-confrontation, and are focusing on security and development in Central Asia, with stability in Afghanistan and Central Asian economic integration as top priorities. Besides, they're looking for expansion into Pakistan and India, and I really don't think that's the smartest move if they want to be turning the SCO into an alliance because there's no way that China, Russia, Pakistan, India and all the smaller countries have enough common ground for an alliance.

    China and I guess Russia's interest in Syria with respect to the SCO is to protect the SCO from encroaching terrorism. I don't think we have reason to read into it any further than that. ISIS has already fomented terrorism in Central Asia, where there are many SCO members, and perhaps will invade those countries once they gain the ability to. It's safe to say that everybody's primary goal is defeating ISIS, and this is increasing the probability that long-time rivals like the US and Iran might actually cooperate militarily for once.

    And no regarding Chinese warships in Alaskan waters, I gave you the reasons. Militaries do what militaries do. Gathering information, training, etc. I mean, every country understands that every other countries' military does those things. I cannot stress enough how the media blows up every occurrence and makes it look like a big deal because they simply aren't. The Chinese-US relationship simply is not at a tipping point, and neither would China or the US go to war with each other over Syria. Anything else is just paranoia.
     

    ElCabron

    Su Cabronito!
  • 69
    Posts
    8
    Years
    Is that the perception that you have in Brazil? Because the SCO is not a military alliance. Compared to NATO, its institutional structure is very weak. Right now, they're dedicated to be non-aligned, non-confrontation, and are focusing on security and development in Central Asia, with stability in Afghanistan and Central Asian economic integration as top priorities. Besides, they're looking for expansion into Pakistan and India, and I really don't think that's the smartest move if they want to be turning the SCO into an alliance because there's no way that China, Russia, Pakistan, India and all the smaller countries have enough common ground for an alliance.

    China and I guess Russia's interest in Syria with respect to the SCO is to protect the SCO from encroaching terrorism. I don't think we have reason to read into it any further than that. ISIS has already fomented terrorism in Central Asia, where there are many SCO members, and perhaps will invade those countries once they gain the ability to. It's safe to say that everybody's primary goal is defeating ISIS, and this is increasing the probability that long-time rivals like the US and Iran might actually cooperate militarily for once.

    And no regarding Chinese warships in Alaskan waters, I gave you the reasons. Militaries do what militaries do. Gathering information, training, etc. I mean, every country understands that every other countries' military does those things. I cannot stress enough how the media blows up every occurrence and makes it look like a big deal because they simply aren't. The Chinese-US relationship simply is not at a tipping point, and neither would China or the US go to war with each other over Syria. Anything else is just paranoia.

    What do you mean with "Is that the perception that you have in Brazil?"? I don't get it.

    And, I understand you being skeptical about that, but try to see the situation with other eyes. Shanghai Five, former SCO, was really against the idea of other countries intervention and that's what would happen if we assume the hypothetical situation concretizes itself. China would still be in a tight spot due to Russia not taking the idea easily. And they already pointed out their thoughts on all of that. Also, check again who's Russia is aiming their fire too.
    Besides, as I think I have pointed out, it's not they have opposite views on the situation, none of them want a war, it's not the idea right now and it'd be bad. The thing is the outcome on all of this, as if it leads to an opposition, and Russia does what it has been saying, what would China do. They never said to be in favor, nor have they stood against. All of them, however, have the same objective in mind and it's to defeat the islamic state. But isn't the objective of the islamic state to take al-Assad out of the government, and is also not that US and France have been desiring as well? And if al-Assad is confortable to blame Paris for its terrorism, I am safe to say they got an ally in it and are sure about what they are doing.
    And I'd have my doubts if Iran is even going to cooperate with US, as they never gave any reasoning to believe in such. Besides, Russia and Iran still doesn't agree with that hypothetical situation I have mentioned.

    The media on your country might have made it sound much worse, but from where I got this information was from a navy member that has been working in our navy for a long time. And I have heard several of them saying how this is not so well seen between them. Millitaries do what they do, but when two countries have several conflicts between them and suspicious maneuvers are taken for no reason, it's not
    taken lightly. Did you ever spoke to a official about that issue and how they see it when this happens? They don't like when an opposing navy takes actions which defies the sovereignty of another one.
    And I'm not making it up nor am I making it sound worse. I'm saying such just slightly shows China's possible move on that very hypothetical situation.
     

    Ivysaur

    Grass dinosaur extraordinaire
  • 21,082
    Posts
    17
    Years
    If we start a war against our muslim co-citizens, we have lost by proving their worldview of "everyone vs us".

    If we ditch Schengen and go back to having closed borders, we will have dumped one of the spirits of the European Union, taking a historical step back in intra-continental cooperation and trust. I hope we don't get there, because it would be a really, really sad day. The moment when someone screams "State's Sovereingty", the fragile political union we have will break, perhaps irreparably. I fear the day such a thing might happen.
     
  • 5,983
    Posts
    15
    Years
    What do you mean with "Is that the perception that you have in Brazil?"? I don't get it.

    I noticed that your postbit location is in Brazil. I wonder if that's just what most people believe in Brazil, because I know your country has a special relationship in China and so the media might be biased in a certain way.

    And, I understand you being skeptical about that, but try to see the situation with other eyes. Shanghai Five, former SCO, was really against the idea of other countries intervention and that's what would happen if we assume the hypothetical situation concretizes itself. China would still be in a tight spot due to Russia not taking the idea easily. And they already pointed out their thoughts on all of that. Also, check again who's Russia is aiming their fire too.
    Besides, as I think I have pointed out, it's not they have opposite views on the situation, none of them want a war, it's not the idea right now and it'd be bad. The thing is the outcome on all of this, as if it leads to an opposition, and Russia does what it has been saying, what would China do. They never said to be in favor, nor have they stood against. All of them, however, have the same objective in mind and it's to defeat the islamic state. But isn't the objective of the islamic state to take al-Assad out of the government, and is also not that US and France have been desiring as well? And if al-Assad is confortable to blame Paris for its terrorism, I am safe to say they got an ally in it and are sure about what they are doing.
    And I'd have my doubts if Iran is even going to cooperate with US, as they never gave any reasoning to believe in such. Besides, Russia and Iran still doesn't agree with that hypothetical situation I have mentioned.

    Well, of course, neither the US or Iran wants to cooperate with one another, at least not publicly. But the situation really demands that some kind of cooperation take place if they want to accomplish their goals. I'm not going to bet on whether or not the countries cooperate, but the situation lends itself to suggesting cooperation that would have been unthinkable just a couple years ago. That's all I'm going to say on that subject.

    I don't think I understand the rest of your hypothetical scenario, though. The most that China can do throughout all this is veto UNSC resolutions it doesn't like, and complain. I have a very hard time picturing a Chinese intervention without a UN mandate. China isn't intimately involved in Syria like the other big countries involved, and it doesn't stand to gain or lose much no matter what happens. Its primary interest in Syria, then, is to stop ISIS. Otherwise, it will stand to prevent the UNSC being used as a platform for regime change.

    The media on your country might have made it sound much worse, but from where I got this information was from a navy member that has been working in our navy for a long time. And I have heard several of them saying how this is not so well seen between them. Millitaries do what they do, but when two countries have several conflicts between them and suspicious maneuvers are taken for no reason, it's not
    taken lightly. Did you ever spoke to a official about that issue and how they see it when this happens? They don't like when an opposing navy takes actions which defies the sovereignty of another one.
    And I'm not making it up nor am I making it sound worse. I'm saying such just slightly shows China's possible move on that very hypothetical situation.

    Of course that's what a navy personnel would say, it's their job to defend their country against incursions of sovereignty and it's their job to be upset about those cases when they happen. Right? That's an example of the military doing what militaries do. Foreign policy, on the other hand, realizes that these acts of incursion have occurred in some form or another for a very long time, and are small in the long run. Just because you criticize a country doesn't mean that any kind of significant retribution is intended, nor has bilateral relations been damaged to any great extent.
     

    KorpiklaaniVodka

    KID BUU PAWAA
  • 3,318
    Posts
    10
    Years
    I don't know what to believe at this point. Honestly WW3 is already happening, it's called the Syrian Civil War. And it will probably extend to the entire Middle East.
     

    ElCabron

    Su Cabronito!
  • 69
    Posts
    8
    Years
    Closing borders is all nice, I'm also in favor of somewhat, but that would just lead the refugees back to there (Syria and other places), and I don't think they'd have a chance over not joining ISIS. So, all in all, it's a double-edged sword. It can lead to the worse.

    I noticed that your postbit location is in Brazil. I wonder if that's just what most people believe in Brazil, because I know your country has a special relationship in China and so the media might be biased in a certain way.



    Well, of course, neither the US or Iran wants to cooperate with one another, at least not publicly. But the situation really demands that some kind of cooperation take place if they want to accomplish their goals. I'm not going to bet on whether or not the countries cooperate, but the situation lends itself to suggesting cooperation that would have been unthinkable just a couple years ago. That's all I'm going to say on that subject.

    I don't think I understand the rest of your hypothetical scenario, though. The most that China can do throughout all this is veto UNSC resolutions it doesn't like, and complain. I have a very hard time picturing a Chinese intervention without a UN mandate. China isn't intimately involved in Syria like the other big countries involved, and it doesn't stand to gain or lose much no matter what happens. Its primary interest in Syria, then, is to stop ISIS. Otherwise, it will stand to prevent the UNSC being used as a platform for regime change.



    Of course that's what a navy personnel would say, it's their job to defend their country against incursions of sovereignty and it's their job to be upset about those cases when they happen. Right? That's an example of the military doing what militaries do. Foreign policy, on the other hand, realizes that these acts of incursion have occurred in some form or another for a very long time, and are small in the long run. Just because you criticize a country doesn't mean that any kind of significant retribution is intended, nor has bilateral relations been damaged to any great extent.

    Not really, that I can assure you. Besides, why'd we have any bias towards this issue? It's of no interest for the Brazil media to keep our governement at its current spot. Just saying she's sided with China and the possible outcome on all of this would be just the perfect bait to kick the governor. And a lot would side with. Like, a lot.


    And what's tiring about this discussion, is simply the fact you're making me repeat myself over and over and posing no arguments whatsover.
    Anyway, what everyone thinks isn't exactly what the world will take of. Your government has already said is it of NO DESIRE to send troops to Syria, and that's good enough for me, because that'd be of no solution right now.

    I'd have my doubts about China not being important at all in this situation. Do you truly believe in such when its and Russia's regime conflicts with what US believes, and such also conflict with Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria? And you're speaking of the world's second largest economy. If it decides to side with Russia with whatever they do against the US, then yes, it's of huge matters.
    And I'm not going to repeat myself over this. I've explained a lot of times by now. I won't fall for your game.

    And it's not me only to romaticize the situation, for certain.
    I don't want to sound rude, but are you even trying to understand what I'm saying? Comprehend and all, y' know. I won't use the english excuse as I think my opinion and statement came out fairly well for one to get the grasp of what I'm saying. This discussion is just getting kinda tiring by your excess of blabbering and no reasonable argument whatsover. I don't care for contrary opinions, I certainly don't as I fight with this every day. However, when in a discussion, I'm forced to express my opinions several times, explain it and keep explaining it, I don't want to come out as wrong due to one's failing miserably to take the other side's view.
     
  • 5,983
    Posts
    15
    Years
    Not really, that I can assure you. Besides, why'd we have any bias towards this issue? It's of no interest for the Brazil media to keep our governement at its current spot. Just saying she's sided with China and the possible outcome on all of this would be just the perfect bait to kick the governor. And a lot would side with. Like, a lot.

    And what's tiring about this discussion, is simply the fact you're making me repeat myself over and over and posing no arguments whatsover. Anyway, what everyone thinks isn't exactly what the world will take of. Your government has already said is it of NO DESIRE to send troops to Syria, and that's good enough for me, because that'd be of no solution right now.

    I'd have my doubts about China not being important at all in this situation. Do you truly believe in such when its and Russia's regime conflicts with what US believes, and such also conflict with Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria? And you're speaking of the world's second largest economy. If it decides to side with Russia with whatever they do against the US, then yes, it's of huge matters.
    And I'm not going to repeat myself over this. I've explained a lot of times by now. I won't fall for your game.

    And it's not me only to romaticize the situation, for certain.
    I don't want to sound rude, but are you even trying to understand what I'm saying? Comprehend and all, y' know. I won't use the english excuse as I think my opinion and statement came out fairly well for one to get the grasp of what I'm saying. This discussion is just getting kinda tiring by your excess of blabbering and no reasonable argument whatsover. I don't care for contrary opinions, I certainly don't as I fight with this every day. However, when in a discussion, I'm forced to express my opinions several times, explain it and keep explaining it, I don't want to come out as wrong due to one's failing miserably to take the other side's view.

    I don't mean any offence, but I honestly think I'm not understanding your English. What do you mean by "perfect bait to kick the governor"? And what does "And a lot would side with" mean?

    I don't mean any offence by talking about the country you live in either. I come from the understanding that different countries have different perspectives on international relations and was simply wondering if your beliefs reflected what the average Brazilian might think about the situation and China's involvement. People who don't specifically study China tend to overestimate China's interests and capabilities, and I find that it's true no matter which country they come from.

    I think my arguments are very clear: that China has fewer interests than all of the countries involved in Syria and Iraq at the moment, which means that it currently is not involved in the fighting, will likely not involve itself in the future, and will probably be the first country to turn against Assad (other than those already against him right now) if things go poorly for him.

    The only alliance on the ground in Iraq and Syria other than the West, is the cooperation between the Assad regime, Russia, Iran, and Iraq. China's not a part of that, and it won't be for all of the reasons I've already stated: 1) no core interests, 2) non-intervention principle, 3) not involved in creating the mess or escalating the violence. Yes, my opinion is that China will stay on the sidelines for this. Yes, China is important, but that goes without saying - China is important for pretty much anything that goes on in the world. The distinction is that as important as China is as a world player, they're not one of the key players in the Syria crisis. Yes, China and Russia disagree with the US position of getting rid of Assad (which is subject to change), but they agree with the United States that the best option is a political settlement. The only disagreement is the details, including whether Assad himself stays or goes, how much power the leaders of the old regime should have in a new regime, how to incorporate the rebels, etc.

    Why do you think that Russia intends anything against the US? I don't think you've made that clear at all. It's a rather extreme position to take, especially since there are reputable news sources that take the direct opposite opinion, that the US and Russia are increasingly finding common ground and considering cooperation: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/24/...mmon-goals-on-syria-if-not-on-assad.html?_r=0. Even though they don't agree 100%, they seem to be happy with the agreement they've achieved in their most recent meeting.

    I don't think I'm just blabbering. I like to think I'm well informed about Chinese politics because it's something I keep up to date on, and it's something I've been studying for the past couple of years. I've also studied international relations, which allows me to put incidents like warships crossing territorial waters into perspective.

    What I think about your position is that you're a lot more wary about China and Russia's disagreements with the US, and you exaggerate how important China actually is, as well as the degree of disagreement and aggression between Russia and the US. In a word, I'm just more optimistic about the countries cooperating than you are - and I've shown you the evidence I have for this optimism.
     

    Lunaturret

    [B]The Forgotten[/B]
  • 253
    Posts
    10
    Years
    I think more then ISIS is to blame as im hearing so much about country's allowing them through their borders france being warned months prior to attacks hearing about the fake dead numerous hoax's and conspiracy's hard to believe what you hear on the news.
     
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