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Church and State

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    Please LDS Man, explain to me why non-Christians should have to pay taxes for a Christian institution, which is itself tax-exempt.

    Yeah, that's not what was happening. Christians and non-Christians all pay taxes. All groups should have access to programs aimed at the general public. The case was about updating the playground the kids use to be safer. Not to fund proselytizing of the general public. Don't you want kids to be safe??? (Humor)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Lutheran_Church_of_Columbia,_Inc._v._Comer

    Anyway. It didn't endorse religion.

    Edit:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
    Honestly I think some people have taken this further than it was meant to go. Attacking war memorials for being crosses or attacking govt employees who decorate for Christmas.
     
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    Maedar

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  • Honestly I think some people have taken this further than it was meant to go. Attacking war memorials for being crosses or attacking govt employees who decorate for Christmas.

    Okay, I will admit that folks who do THAT go a little too far.
     

    Miss Wendighost

    Satan's Little Princess
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  • Thats what people say and yet there are still issues.


    That not making a law. That's pointing out that you can't deny services, like updating school/daycare playgrounds simply because the building happens to be a church.

    Please go on about the issues that the majority of the US population face.
     
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  • Yes, there shouldn't be a single religion that dictates how the government should respond, but what's also wrong is if the government tries to impose rules that cause problems for people that follow religion. The first amendment, which I will quote here:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    One of the main reasons the US was formed in the first place was because the settlers didn't want to subject themselves to the primary religion Great Britain was practicing at the time, which was Roman Catholicism, and to instead have more of an open mind as to the various aspects of life. So the US was built on the concept that religion was not to be enforced in government. While God is mentioned in various documents, the Founding Fathers looked to Him as part of how they treated others (so while Christianity is not being played out as a primary religion, God's name is preserved mainly for historical reasons, and to remove any references to him means to go against what the Founding Fathers had intended for this country, although the current government, especially the House, is having many Founding Fathers turning in their graves even now), and it is through that viewpoint that this country allows anyone of any religion to come and be prosperous while not being persecuted for their belief.

    What the liberal media will not tell you is that there have been MANY attacks on Christianity in particular, especially in schools. And do you think we're bad people if we try to fight back against these so-called "rules"? There have been many attacks on Muslims as well, and probably out of fear because of 9/11. The recent comments against Jews also has my attention, and who knows what other religions have also been brutally attacked against (I know here in Texas for a short time there were some smaller religions that had hate crimes committed against them). This is not about prohibiting any religion from being law in the US, but there are attacks to prohibit some religions from being practiced, and that is a violation of the First Amendment. The reason conservatives tend to also get mixed in is because a majority of the Christians are conservatives, and their freedom of speech is being attacked as well by the other side.

    TL;DR, I am not saying that Christianity should be the main religion, as that goes against the ideals of how this country was founded. My problem is that especially those on the far-left are breaking the First Amendment by trying to impede or even silence people of religion. I know there's problem people on the far-right as well, but the majority of the attacks I've heard about have come from liberals or socialists.
     
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    371
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    Please go on about the issues that the majority of the US population face.

    This is just going to generate one of those nit picky "but it doesn't affect ALL Christians" arguments.

    These things, to me anyway, are issues that affect all Christians whether or not all Christians agree with the issue at hand. Each item gives some group, govt or other, the ability to determine how Christians, individual or otherwise, express their faith. Note, I am not expressing my veiwpoint on these matters.

    1. Senators demanding to know what nominees think about specific religious groups stances on thinks. Perilously close to litmus tests.
    2. Trying to force bakers, florists, wedding coordinators, wedding location owners to support gay marriage or be shut down. Also while ignoring other religions that refuse to support gay weddings.
    3. Kicking Christian groups off campus
    4. Demanding Christian groups allow non Christians become leaders of said group.
    5. Demanding groups allow female or trans leaders/priests/ministers
    6. Demand Christians remove bibles and other Christian religious items from university chapel.
    7. Demand Christian colleges or universities change their code of conduct to allow whatever

    Based on this, it doesn't appear that the Christian religion has a lot of influence.
     

    KetsuekiR

    Ridiculously unsure
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  • 1. Senators demanding to know what nominees think about specific religious groups stances on thinks. Perilously close to litmus tests.
    2. Trying to force bakers, florists, wedding coordinators, wedding location owners to support gay marriage or be shut down. Also while ignoring other religions that refuse to support gay weddings.
    3. Kicking Christian groups off campus
    4. Demanding Christian groups allow non Christians become leaders of said group.
    5. Demanding groups allow female or trans leaders/priests/ministers
    6. Demand Christians remove bibles and other Christian religious items from university chapel.
    7. Demand Christian colleges or universities change their code of conduct to allow whatever

    Based on this, it doesn't appear that the Christian religion has a lot of influence.
    I'm ignoring points 1 through 6 because I want to look at point 7 specifically because I think it's something worth discussing (especially with the semi-recent Karen Pence matter) when talking about separation of Church and State.

    Let's say there's a kid looking to go to school. They're transgender. The area they live in have a really, really shitty school with barely any resources and horrible teachers, and a really, really good school with a lot of funding and the best teachers. The latter, though, is very Christian and doesn't allow transgender students in. Leaving the area is just financially not an option for the family or the kid.

    Should the school's right to religion trump the kid's right to a good education and by extension, equal opportunity?

    When it comes to freedom of religion especially, we're moving into the territory of questioning which rights are more important than others. Personally, I don't think Christian, Muslim or schools of any religion should be allowed to discriminate based on sex, gender identification, disability, race, etc. because I believe the right to equal opportunity (note: opportunity, not outcome) is more valuable to society than the right to religious exclusion.
     
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    Maedar

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  • LDS Man, you outlined the problem yourself. There are two sides to every issue, and you only see one of them. To someone like me, the bakery refusing to serve a gay couple was no different than had they refused to serve a black or Jewish couple.

    To illustrate what I'm saying, put yourself in the customer's shoes. You and your fiancee, who you love enough to spend the rest of your life with, are planning your wedding. What would your reaction be to a merchant refusing to serve you on the grounds that he objects to you marrying? What COULD your reaction be?

    Then when the pot gets stirred and loudmouthed politicians go public, condemning your marriage as a sinful "abomination" no better than bestiality, you're not exactly going to appreciate it.

    You know, I used to be a church-goer. I believe in God, and I believe Jesus (or at least someone like the man described in the Bible) did exist. But if He was anything like the peace-loving, tolerant, generous pacifist the Bible describes, I find it very hard to believe he'd side with the vicious attacks leveled against gays by foul-mouthed cretins like Phil Robertson and the WBC. I find it hard to fathom that he'd support the Southern Baptists in their boycott of Disney or claim that a child conceived through rape was a "gift from God". IMOHO, these people are the religious equivalents of snake-oil-salesmen, using the church to peddle hate in order to make discrimination acceptable.

    Freedom of Speech is okay up until the point you use it to hurt, condemn, or belittle someone else. That is NOT the message Jesus gave.
     
    371
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    I'm ignoring points 1 through 6 because I want to look at point 7 specifically because I think it's something worth discussing (especially with the semi-recent Karen Pence matter) when talking about separation of Church and State.
    Pence? Ahh. Private religious school vs public school.
    Religious, private schools have a right to set their standards. The public is not paying for that school. Doesn't mean I agree with it.

    Let's say there's a kid looking to go to school. They're transgender. The area they live in have a really, really shitty school with barely any resources and horrible teachers, and a really, really good school with a lot of funding and the best teachers. The latter, though, is very Christian and doesn't allow transgender students in. Leaving the area is just financially not an option for the family or the kid.
    If they can't move, how can they pay the tuition at the private school?

    Should the school's right to religion trump the kid's right to a good education and by extension, equal opportunity?
    That's tricky. The US Constitution does not list education as a fundamental right while Freedom of Religion is the very first one. Unfortunately for the kid, you can not force a private and religious school to admit someone who violates core tenants of their beliefs.

    When it comes to freedom of religion especially, we're moving into the territory of questioning which rights are more important than others. Personally, I don't think Christian, Muslim or schools of any religion should be allowed to discriminate based on sex, gender identification, disability, race, etc. because I believe the right to equal opportunity (note: opportunity, not outcome) is more valuable to society than the right to religious exclusion.
    How do you prevent people from flooding the "better" schools with their kids and basically overwhelming and destroying that school?

    LDS Man, you outlined the problem yourself. There are two sides to every issue, and you only see one of them. To someone like me, the bakery refusing to serve a gay couple was no different than had they refused to serve a black or Jewish couple.
    First, I do see both sides. It be great if everybody had zero problem with everybody else. Forcing someone to do something they disagree with is slavery. Slavery is bad. And the bakery regularly served that couple. They could buy any premade cake or baked good they wanted or even order other goods. The line the bakery had was to make a wedding cake celebrating the gay couple's upcoming wedding. The bakery was not willing to do that as celebrating said wedding was against their religious beliefs.

    To illustrate what I'm saying, put yourself in the customer's shoes. You and your fiancee, who you love enough to spend the rest of your life with, are planning your wedding. What would your reaction be to a merchant refusing to serve you on the grounds that he objects to you marrying? What COULD your reaction be?
    I'm a reasonable person. If I liked that person and really liked that bakery, then I'd be disappointed but I'd find someone else to make the cake. If their response really pissed me off, I'd likely cuss them out and along with never coming back, I'd badmouth them to potential customers.

    Then when the pot gets stirred and loudmouthed politicians go public, condemning your marriage as a sinful "abomination" no better than bestiality, you're not exactly going to appreciate it.
    I'm sure the baker at al, appreciated be accused of being a hate filled bigot and dragged through court.

    You know, I used to be a church-goer. I believe in God, and I believe Jesus (or at least someone like the man described in the Bible) did exist. But if He was anything like the peace-loving, tolerant, generous pacifist the
    Jesus wasn't a pacifist. He was a peaceful person. Bit of a difference. Used a whip on money lenders, advocated buying a sword. anyway. Different topic.


    Freedom of Speech is okay up until the point you use it to hurt, condemn, or belittle someone else. That is NOT the message Jesus gave.
    Free speech with limits isn't free speech.
     

    Maedar

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  • I'm a reasonable person. If I liked that person and really liked that bakery, then I'd be disappointed but I'd find someone else to make the cake. If their response really pissed me off, I'd likely cuss them out and along with never coming back, I'd badmouth them to potential customers.

    IC, the oft-used "two wrongs make a right" approach. Again, not what Jesus taught.

    I'm sure the baker at al, appreciated be accused of being a hate filled bigot and dragged through court.

    Uh, think you'd better run that by me again...

    Jesus wasn't a pacifist. He was a peaceful person. Bit of a difference. Used a whip on money lenders, advocated buying a sword. anyway. Different topic.

    Really?

    You're saying the man who got an angry mob to back down by saying "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" wasn't a pacifist? How about the parable of the Good Samaritan? You do know how much Jews and Samaritans despised each other, right? The story would likely be a shock to whomever He was speaking to.

    And if you oppose limits on Free Speech, WHY did you put "Snip" in place of part of what I said?

    Free speech with limits isn't free speech.

    You can say all you want.

    But if you use your words to insult or endanger someone else, the 1st Amendment does not mean there will not be consequences.
     
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    371
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    IC, the oft-used "two wrongs make a right" approach. Again, not what Jesus taught.
    Last time I checked, I'm not Jesus.

    Uh, think you'd better run that by me again...
    All those people got vilified and recieved death threats over a refusal to do extra work that harmed nobody.


    Yep. Really.
    . I'm passing on the theological discussion.
    And if you oppose limits on Free Speech, WHY did you put "Snip" in place of part of what I said?
    Because not engaging in a pointless tangent isn't limiting your Free Speech.

    You can say all you want.

    But if you use your words to insult or endanger someone else, the 1st Amendment does not mean there will not be consequences.

    Depends on who's handing out the consequences and why. Define "insult". Sticks and stones and all that.
    Define endanger. The SC has ruled that short of immediate and actionable threats, free speech covers a lot.


    Edit: can we swing this back to the topic of general church and state?
     
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    Maedar

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  • All those people got vilified and recieved death threats over a refusal to do extra work that harmed nobody.

    Again, HOW is it different from refusing service to a black man? You know, the stuff Rev. King fought against in the Civil Rights era?
     
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    Again, HOW is it different from refusing service to a black man? You know, the stuff Rev. King fought against in the Civil Rights era?

    Well they didn't "refuse service." They refused to do special orders.
     
    527
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  • To someone like me, the bakery refusing to serve a gay couple was no different than had they refused to serve a black or Jewish couple.

    There is a difference, if a couple is refused service and it could be interpreted as "immoral", someone will find a way to make it news-worthy. Imagine all the news outlets whenever a black man, dangerous or not, is shot by a white policeman, but how much do you hear about vice versa? Almost none. So it is based on perspective, and a lot of things greatly exaggerated...but that's today's journalism nowadays.

    To illustrate what I'm saying, put yourself in the customer's shoes. You and your fiancee, who you love enough to spend the rest of your life with, are planning your wedding. What would your reaction be to a merchant refusing to serve you on the grounds that he objects to you marrying? What COULD your reaction be?

    Very simple, I would tell the person that I will no longer shop there. Oftentimes businesses are dependent on the power of the wallet, and if you told your friends not to go to a business, eventually word would get around and people may stop coming to that business and sales will go down. I've seen examples of the opposite happen: when the LGBT community tried to strike back against Chick-fil-A in 2012 after finding out the company had been contributing to anti-LGBT organizations, there were calls to boycott the stores in protest. However, its sales actually increased that year despite the outrage.

    Regarding the whole "how would Jesus act" thing, that unfortunately has different interpretations depending on who you speak to. There are many in the church that claim to follow God, but use it as a means for their own criticism, and I do not support nor follow that. I will not respond to the individual things you mentioned, but it is sad to hear of such abuse happening, and you know that they will be judged accordingly at the end for those actions, if they actually DID choose to follow Him. These are NOT the people that should be elected in the government.

    Freedom of Speech is okay up until the point you use it to hurt, condemn, or belittle someone else. That is NOT the message Jesus gave.

    There are many examples of this happening today, yet they are not condemned, the biggest example for me being the anti-Semitic comments from Omar. Liberals have changed so much that they refuse to see their own faults when they belittle others that don't share their own viewpoints.
     
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    How much control should the state have over religious beliefs/churches or religious schools? Especially private schools?
     
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  • If we take it as a literal interpretation of the First Amendment, the states should have very little control over churches and schools, but we know that is not possible. Schools in particular get funding from the states, and could be in a tough situation if the people elected to the state governments decide to put pressure on the schools to allow students normally opposed to that religion to be able to attend. The problem in this situation lies with the states themselves and not the churches or schools. It's why it is so important that we elect officials that are impartial, but I think nowadays those kinds of officials don't get elected. The idea of getting elected comes down to the money, and sometimes the only way to get money is to appeal to certain organizations that have their own view on religion.
     
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    Miss Wendighost

    Satan's Little Princess
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  • This is just going to generate one of those nit picky "but it doesn't affect ALL Christians" arguments.

    These things, to me anyway, are issues that affect all Christians whether or not all Christians agree with the issue at hand. Each item gives some group, govt or other, the ability to determine how Christians, individual or otherwise, express their faith. Note, I am not expressing my veiwpoint on these matters.

    1. Senators demanding to know what nominees think about specific religious groups stances on thinks. Perilously close to litmus tests.
    2. Trying to force bakers, florists, wedding coordinators, wedding location owners to support gay marriage or be shut down. Also while ignoring other religions that refuse to support gay weddings.
    3. Kicking Christian groups off campus
    4. Demanding Christian groups allow non Christians become leaders of said group.
    5. Demanding groups allow female or trans leaders/priests/ministers
    6. Demand Christians remove bibles and other Christian religious items from university chapel.
    7. Demand Christian colleges or universities change their code of conduct to allow whatever

    Based on this, it doesn't appear that the Christian religion has a lot of influence.

    Obviously you forgot the fact that most presidents in American History have been Christian. Also, a few things with your examples: One, in the cases of the bakers, most of them were violating anti-discrimination laws in their respective states (religion is not an excuse for breaking the law), Two, how is having a female pastor going to damage the Church in any way?, Thirdly, as evidenced by #ExposeChristianSchools, people want to see policies change so that kids who have to attend that school because the public ones are underfunded or whatever don't drop out because of bullying. Lastly, any evidence that your list of claims are even true?
     
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  • One, in the cases of the bakers, most of them were violating anti-discrimination laws in their respective states (religion is not an excuse for breaking the law),

    The Supreme Court is a bit fuzzy on this because of their ruling, the whole thing centers around a specialty made cake being a work of art and thus protected under the first amendment. You cannot force someone to violate their freedom of speech no matter what laws a state passes. However seeing how Colorado has dropped it's case against Masterpiece Cakeshop, it seems to suggest at least one state believes that the Supreme Court would side with the artist against the state's anti discrimination law.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/mar/5/jack-phillips-wins-second-round-in-transgender-cak/
     
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    Obviously you forgot the fact that most presidents in American History have been Christian.
    People vote for Presidents like themselves. How many were paying lip service to the churches?

    Also, a few things with your examples: One, in the cases of the bakers, most of them were violating anti-discrimination laws in their respective states (religion is not an excuse for breaking the law),
    Question becomes were the laws made to target Christians who disagree with gay marriage? Sometimes it seems like these people get targeted. Law gets passed and suddenly the bakers/whoever get sued repeatedly by people. Supposedly a lot of people knew the Masterpiece bakery owner's opinion on gay marriage. Yet someone still tried to get a wedding cake made.

    Two, how is having a female pastor going to damage the Church in any way?,
    Some people hold to the belief that men and women have separate roles to play. Will it cause damage? Don't know. Not for outsiders to decide.

    Thirdly, as evidenced by #ExposeChristianSchools, people want to see policies change so that kids who have to attend that school because the public ones are underfunded or whatever don't drop out because of bullying.
    How many of those people are members of that religious group and not outsiders?

    Lastly, any evidence that your list of claims are even true?

    1 and 2 are already sourced above.
    3 and 4
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/christian-group-sues-michigan-university-after-it-is-kicked-off-campus
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/christian-club-wins-religious-freedom-case-against-the-university-of-iowa
    5
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/v...ep-includes-women-who-demand-female-cardinals

    6
    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/university-to-remove-cross-and-bibles-from-campus-chapel
    7
    https://www.christianheadlines.com/...rsity-change-its-stance-on-homosexuality.html

    I just googled and pulled articles that matched what I said. I have zero clue how many times this happens.
     

    Miss Wendighost

    Satan's Little Princess
    709
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  • People vote for Presidents like themselves. How many were paying lip service to the churches?

    Question becomes were the laws made to target Christians who disagree with gay marriage? Sometimes it seems like these people get targeted. Law gets passed and suddenly the bakers/whoever get sued repeatedly by people. Supposedly a lot of people knew the Masterpiece bakery owner's opinion on gay marriage. Yet someone still tried to get a wedding cake made.

    Some people hold to the belief that men and women have separate roles to play. Will it cause damage? Don't know. Not for outsiders to decide.

    How many of those people are members of that religious group and not outsiders?



    1 and 2 are already sourced above.
    3 and 4
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/christian-group-sues-michigan-university-after-it-is-kicked-off-campus
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/christian-club-wins-religious-freedom-case-against-the-university-of-iowa
    5
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/v...ep-includes-women-who-demand-female-cardinals

    6
    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/university-to-remove-cross-and-bibles-from-campus-chapel
    7
    https://www.christianheadlines.com/...rsity-change-its-stance-on-homosexuality.html

    I just googled and pulled articles that matched what I said. I have zero clue how many times this happens.

    No, anti-discrimination laws aren't targeting Christians for whatever silly reason (on the same note, the customers in the Masterpiece decision most likely didn't know the religious beliefs of the owner). Likewise, the claim that nobody except Christians should talk about female clergy is almost as insane as saying straight, cisgender people can't talk about LGBT issues. On the topic of your sources, try to use better sources besides religous news sites and Fox when researching said issues, since people can twist things to fit their narrative (shocking, I know).
     
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    500
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  • No, anti-discrimination laws aren't targeting Christians for whatever silly reason (on the same note, the customers in the Masterpiece decision most likely didn't know the religious beliefs of the owner). Likewise, the claim that nobody except Christians should talk about female clergy is almost as insane as saying straight, cisgender people can't talk about LGBT issues. On the topic of your sources, try to use better sources besides religous news sites and Fox when researching said issues, since people can twist things to fit their narrative (shocking, I know).

    It's important to note the second round in the masterpiece cake decision was clearly targeting based on religious beliefs. The person suing for discrimination harassed the shop on several occasions. First asking for a transgender cake, blue on the outside pink on the inside, and then asking for a satanic cake, and then asking for a cake that included a working dildo. The person clearly knew what they were doing in harassing the shop.
     
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