Debate: How do you feel about abortions?

[Melody]

Yeah, I think the pro-choicers in here are forgetting that we might have mentioned several, or even many posts ago that we are NOT for an outright ban.

This discussion isn't black-and-white to be honest, it's all the shades of gray...and people who refuse to see it that way are depriving themselves of happiness.

 

[Oryx]

And yeah, it's not like I believe abortion should be completely illegal either. I was convinced a long time ago that there were possible situations where it would be okay. I just think we're too liberal about it right now.

Quoted you because it's less text in my box, but this is directed to both of you. XD

Abortion is murder in my opinion.

I oppose them

I believe the rape arguments aren't directed towards you, but people such as these two and others who actually disagree with them.

 

[Dawn]

Happy now? Some of your arguments I can understand (I can see why you're saying a fetus isn't a parasite based on your sources, for example), but arguing something this obviously wrong is really making me question your opinions of everything. You have teachers, yes? In high school or college or whatever school you're in? Please do me a favor and ask a biology teacher if cells are alive instead of trying to interpret it yourself and being rude when people contradict you.

After looking it up, you're right, the other definitions online specify two species. Although, just putting this out there, the way you're acting makes me not want to even associate with you enough to agree now that a fetus isn't a parasite, because you're being outright rude. Can you please tone it down a bit for a less "i mad" discussion?

Also, the biology part made me lol, because of the cell part above. That argument really doesn't have much to do with a fetus anymore, but the fact that you're arguing quite heatedly that cells aren't alive frankly worries me, because that's a very basic fact that's taught to children and if you believe otherwise, maybe there's an issue in the educational system in your area or something. I don't like thinking that people may not know something as basic as "cells are alive". It was hard to even find sources that didn't cater to children :/

Your satire is lost on me... Also where you get that I'm 'heated' is beyond me. You want to see heated, look at some of my responses to certain other people in this thread. >.> I simply saw an invalid argument and prompted you to give a good one. Regardless of how right you sound, you needed to give a good argument before we could continue.

Speaking of which... your argument... satisfies me. I suppose I didn't think that statement through when I said cells weren't alive.

Still, cells are not humans. That's important to distinguish.

I believe the rape arguments aren't directed towards you, but people such as these two and others who actually disagree with them.

Fair enough. I was just clarifying.

Not sure, if you noticed, but I happened to be posting studies too. Studies published in the American Journal of Medicine. I have backed up my claims at every turn. If you'd like I can try to find a study that says women are indeed humans, but I believe that was understood and accepted by all parties. It's also the only part of my argument not supported by research.

I don't see your studies. =| Please show me them. Quote your supposed posts if you must.

 

[Melody]

Quoted you because it's less text in my box, but this is directed to both of you. XD

I believe the rape arguments aren't directed towards you, but people such as these two and others who actually disagree with them.

Note that I didn't name anyone for a reason, you should know you aren't being too black-and-white about it, so why waste breath rebutting something meant for folks who ARE being black-and-white about it. I'd love to name names or quote people, but I'm trying not to be a jerk about it.

 

[lx_theo]

You're grasping at straws.

No, I'm not, because its completely true. If you actually look back to the first few posts, this was my argument then. To say otherwise is simply ignoring the facts before your eyes.

 

[The Trotsky]

I don't see your studies. =| Please show me them. Quote your supposed posts if you must.

Lol [/condescending] They were posted in direct response to your posts

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/health/24fetus.html

Here is the science you were requesting.

https://brainmind.com/FetalBrainDevelopment.html

for the sentience factor. So um, 2 pieces of evidence. Waiting on anything contrary and legitimate

 

[Melody]

lx_theo: No, I don't believe that just because that was your argument before, that it makes your argument any more or less valid. Feel free to link-back to your previous posts if there is some serious citations backing your argument though in that post.

 

[Livewire]

Gonna bring another side of the argument into this:

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973),[1] was a landmark, controversial decision by the United States Supreme Court on the issue of abortion. The Court decided that a right to privacy under the due process clause in the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution extends to a woman's decision to have an abortion, but that right must be balanced against the state's two legitimate interests for regulating abortions: protecting prenatal life and protecting the mother's health. Saying that these state interests become stronger over the course of a pregnancy, the Court resolved this balancing test by tying state regulation of abortion to the mother's current trimester of pregnancy.

I tend to align more with the Roe ruling. Abortions should be, and need to be, legal in the event that someone genuinely needs one, and the government shouldn't feel the need, and shouldn't have the ability, to intervene in people's lives like that.

Also, that piece of legislation is considered untouchable. And rightfully so.

 

[lx_theo]

Yeah, I think the pro-choicers in here are forgetting that we might have mentioned several, or even many posts ago that we are NOT for an outright ban.

This discussion isn't black-and-white to be honest, it's all the shades of gray...and people who refuse to see it that way are depriving themselves of happiness.

Sorry, didn't think common sense needed to be cited.

https://www.deathroe.com/baby_development/

The fetus's brain isn't developed until the end of the 1st trimester, meaning that it is physically incapable of consumption in the sense that its relevant.

 

[Freedom Fighter N]

Whoa man this whole thread went to I dunno. We're talking about "how do you feel about abortions" and not how the fetus grows. How about you all have a nice big D cu- whatever. By the way may I add that this is a creative thread nobody ever saw in a forum and this is probably the first time they're in one and nobody knows how it will end? (Hint: signature)

Abortion should be the "open for everyone" kinda thing. Yeah short like that, I don't see why it shouldn't be legal (dunno how the hell it got into the legal section anyway).

Can anyone give me a reason why it shouldn't be allowed/legal or whatever?

 

[lauren_201]

For all of you who are pro-life who think adoption is such a wonderful idea... Think again.

I am one of those babies who was born from a 15 year old girl and adopted into a "loving" family. I spent the next 18 years of my life in utter HELL. My parents and grandparents were EXTREMELY abusive, emotionally and physically. My adopted mother who was supposed to be one of those women who would give anything to have a baby but couldn't (until she adopted me) who was supposed to love me unconditionally tried to strangle me to the point I was blacking out, along with bashing my head in. Had I done anything to deserve it? Nope... Growing up I never touched drugs, didn't drink and barely went out with friends. I was too afraid of what would happen to me if I made a mistake and I made enough mistakes to get beaten... you know like not being perfect maybe getting a B on a test instead of a A+.

The sad thing is EVERYONE in the neighborhood and family knew what was happening and nobody cared enough about me to do anything about it, I wasn't their flesh and blood why should they care? Most of the time my parents were very careful to not leave any bruises on my skin because they had to show me off at 4-H events and what not but everyone still knew. The emotional bruises they left me with are deep and I'm just now healing from them. I haven't spoken to my family since I was 19 and don't plan on ever speaking to them again.

I spent my entire childhood/teenage years wishing that my birth mother had aborted me. I've met tons of other adopted kids/adults who have the same stories. One of which was sexually abused by her adopted father. At one point several years ago I considered ending my life. I am better now but still suffer from depression. I am lucky to have a loving husband now, who spends a lot of his time trying to make up for everything my parents did to me.

So like I said.. Everyone who is pro-life and thinks adoption is so great... think again. The grass is not greener on the other side. I am pro-choice because I don't think anyone should ever have to have a baby if they don't want one and I don't think anyone should be pressured to carry their baby to term to adopt out if they don't want to (like my birth mother was by her parents). Women have a right to have a say in what happens to their bodies.

 

[Melody]

Your experiences simply do not justify pro-choice. Your experience, while sad, is a rare one. My mom could have aborted me, and my brother but didn't, and she turned out to be the deadbeat parent, my dad had to raise me and my brother. You don't see me supporting pro-choice because of that...though I will admit my dad wasn't a mean person.

 

[lauren_201]

Your experiences simply do not justify pro-choice. Your experience, while sad, is a rare one. My mom could have aborted me, and my brother but didn't, and she turned out to be the deadbeat parent, my dad had to raise me and my brother. You don't see me supporting pro-choice because of that...though I will admit my dad wasn't a mean person.

Too bad you weren't there with me so you could understand. You have absolutely no idea what I went through. You can't even fathom it. So there is no way you can say that my experiences do not justify my being pro-choice. You were not there, you haven't met the other people who went through what I went through as well. You simply do not know nor understand. Unless you experience something terrible like I did.. you just don't get it. By the way, it's not as rare as you think. You cannot compare a deadbeat parent to what I went through it's not the same thing. You just simply dismiss my story as oh that's sad... it wasn't sad. Sad doesn't cut it. It was HORRIFIC.

 

[Livewire]

Your experiences simply do not justify pro-choice. Your experience, while sad, is a rare one. My mom could have aborted me, and my brother but didn't, and she turned out to be the deadbeat parent, my dad had to raise me and my brother. You don't see me supporting pro-choice because of that...though I will admit my dad wasn't a mean person.

A person's individual experiences validate pro choice. If you don't like it, don't get an abortion. You'll never have to see or hear of it since you're so vehemently against it, it will never effect you. So why care, and why tell others how to live their lives?

I'll add a personal example.

Family friends of ours carried an already dangerous pregnancy to term. The child was born with a laundry list of medical diseases and afflictions, including Muscular Dystrophy and severe mental retardation. That child lived for 9 years, and every single damn second was heartbreaking to watch as his health deteriorated to the point where his vital organs were kept going by an array of machines, otherwise he'd be dead in seconds. He was doomed to pain. His parents confided in us later that they would have preferably had an early abortion (which you can't do now, thanks to our GOP friends and the cuts), rather than put a child through 9 years worth of pain and suffering.

 

[lx_theo]

Your experiences simply do not justify pro-choice. Your experience, while sad, is a rare one. My mom could have aborted me, and my brother but didn't, and she turned out to be the deadbeat parent, my dad had to raise me and my brother. You don't see me supporting pro-choice because of that...though I will admit my dad wasn't a mean person.

That's one of most closed minded and ignorant things I've seen posted in this thread. It's a shame, really.

 

[Mika]

A person's individual experiences validate pro choice. If you don't like it, don't get an abortion. You'll never have to see or hear of it since you're so vehemently against it, it will never effect you. So why care, and why tell others how to live their lives?

I'll add a personal example.

Family friends of ours carried an already dangerous pregnancy to term. The child was born with a laundry list of medical diseases and afflictions, including Muscular Dystrophy and severe mental retardation. That child lived for 9 years, and every single damn second was heartbreaking to watch as his health deteriorated to the point where his vital organs were kept going by an array of machines, otherwise he'd be dead in seconds. He was doomed to pain. His parents confided in us later that they would have preferably had an early abortion (which you can't do now, thanks to our GOP friends and the cuts), rather than put a child through 9 years worth of pain and suffering.

We had a family friend who's child was born with only 1/3 of its brain. He lived to be 4 weeks old. He couldn't see, he could barely hear and he lived in constant pain. His parents wished they could've aborted him to save him from the hell he endured for his four short weeks of life.

@lauren I can't say I understand what you went through but I can say I wish more people period, in both pro-choice and pro-life courts, would listen to people like you.

Adoption is a system broken in our country. We let bad parents become adoptive parents and block out the good parents for stupid reasons. There is no support for the adoptee in most states and unless it was a open adoption, reconnection with the birth family is rare. People like to say that ~anyone~ would take a baby.

Minority adoption rates are lower than white adoption rates. It's disgusting but it's true. Dooming a child to life in the foster care system is, in my opinion, cruel.

 

[lauren_201]

@lauren I can't say I understand what you went through but I can say I wish more people period, in both pro-choice and pro-life courts, would listen to people like you.

Adoption is a system broken in our country. We let bad parents become adoptive parents and block out the good parents for stupid reasons. There is no support for the adoptee in most states and unless it was a open adoption, reconnection with the birth family is rare. People like to say that ~anyone~ would take a baby.

Minority adoption rates are lower than white adoption rates. It's disgusting but it's true. Dooming a child to life in the foster care system is, in my opinion, cruel.

Thank you.

I fully agree with you. There isn't any support for adoptees.. and when you try to speak up you get slapped down again. It is frustrating!

 

[lx_theo]

We had a family friend who's child was born with only 1/3 of its brain. He lived to be 4 weeks old. He couldn't see, he could barely hear and he lived in constant pain. His parents wished they could've aborted him to save him from the hell he endured for his four short weeks of life.

@lauren I can't say I understand what you went through but I can say I wish more people period, in both pro-choice and pro-life courts, would listen to people like you.

Adoption is a system broken in our country. We let bad parents become adoptive parents and block out the good parents for stupid reasons. There is no support for the adoptee in most states and unless it was a open adoption, reconnection with the birth family is rare. People like to say that ~anyone~ would take a baby.

Minority adoption rates are lower than white adoption rates. It's disgusting but it's true. Dooming a child to life in the foster care system is, in my opinion, cruel.

Exactly, I've actually had this opinion for a while (I developed a lot of my opinions like this when doing a research paper on the subject last year).

There's a moral argument on both sides. My personal opinion is that I rather not condemn a child to such an existence. Commonly the people who'd get an abortion would be the same people who'd pick adoption or have a broken household.

It creates such a disadvantage in life that even the best among them's chances to fulfill their potential is almost completely lost.

Its just another thing you can't truly understand without the experience. What you can do is try to understand the significance of the fact, like me.

 

[Dawn]

No, I'm not, because its completely true. If you actually look back to the first few posts, this was my argument then. To say otherwise is simply ignoring the facts before your eyes.

Your disturbing lack of a rebuttal only gives the impression that you can't make one.

I'm not going to tell you to stop saying "No u" in as many words as you can, because that's not my place.

I'm just saying, you should probably consider actually countering the point I made instead of blatantly ignoring it.

Lol [/condescending] They were posted in direct response to your posts

Oh yeaaah. I remember refuting that first one! Evidence doesn't do you any good if it's refuted.

I missed the second one though. First of all? Let me refuse your comparison by stating that bugs and weeds are not humans, making the analogy completely void of value. Seeing as you are not the majority of the scientific community, I don't see any real reason to accept your opinion on what it takes for something to qualify as human. So just because you can provide evidence that a fetus has not developed this and that, doesn't get you anywhere until you can justify your view on what it takes for something to be a human being.

Now, I was ironically unable to find a consensus on what exactly qualifies something as human. A part of me believes that the scientific community has not yet come to any conclusive answers.

This leaves us to theory.

Too bad you weren't there with me so you could understand. You have absolutely no idea what I went through. You can't even fathom it. So there is no way you can say that my experiences do not justify my being pro-choice. You were not there, you haven't met the other people who went through what I went through as well. You simply do not know nor understand. Unless you experience something terrible like I did.. you just don't get it. By the way, it's not as rare as you think. You cannot compare a deadbeat parent to what I went through it's not the same thing. You just simply dismiss my story as oh that's sad... it wasn't sad. Sad doesn't cut it. It was HORRIFIC.

You won't beat some of us into submission by getting overly emotional about this. You... might as well calm down. I'm just saying, stressing yourself out over an internet debate is not going to help. First of all, your argument seems to come down to abortion being better than living (When adopted). Now, looking at this, all I see is the same exact argument people use to justify suicide. (death being better than living (When <bad thing here>)) The logic is caused by an inability to think rationally.

...If you honestly believe the logic you're telling us, then I'm obligated to urge you to seek therapy, for your own good.

We had a family friend who's child was born with only 1/3 of its brain. He lived to be 4 weeks old. He couldn't see, he could barely hear and he lived in constant pain. His parents wished they could've aborted him to save him from the hell he endured for his four short weeks of life.

The parents were suffering from an inability to think rationally, possibly depression. It would make complete sense, seeing as they were going through real tough times.

They were using the same logic most suicidal people use to justify suicide. That dying is better than suffering x.

They had a reason for how they felt, but the point is the logic is wrong.

 

[Livewire]

Your disturbing lack of a rebuttal only gives the impression that you can't make one.

I'm not going to tell you to stop saying "No u" in as many words as you can, because that's not my place.

I'm just saying, you should probably consider actually countering the point I made instead of blatantly ignoring it.

Oh yeaaah. I remember refuting that first one! Evidence doesn't do you any good if it's refuted.

I missed the second one though. First of all? Let me refuse your comparison by stating that bugs and weeds are not humans, making the analogy completely void of value. Seeing as you are not the majority of the scientific community, I don't see any real reason to accept your opinion on what it takes for something to qualify as human. So just because you can provide evidence that a fetus has not developed this and that, doesn't get you anywhere until you can justify your view on what it takes for something to be a human being.

Now, I was ironically unable to find a consensus on what exactly qualifies something as human. A part of me believes that the scientific community has not yet come to any conclusive answers.

This leaves us to theory.

Every point you just made works for your "argument" as well, don't pass it off like it doesn't apply to you. You even admitted that you couldn't find a consensus either.