New OU Suspect Round - "Run The Jewels"

[Dragon]

So Smogon has decided to do a new suspect round, featuring the discussion of Sablenite and Shadow Tag this round.

No surprise that Shadow Tag is a pretty powerful tool in OU, with Gothitelle especially, because Gothitelle can pretty much muck up stall teams with it's use of trapping Chansey or other notable pokemon, utilizing Trick, Rest, and even Thunder Wave, holding a Choice Scarf. Or, having a Choice Specs Gothitelle can work if you're aiming to run moves like Energy Ball, Hidden power Fire, or Psychic against Quagsire, Ferrothorn, (and this 2HKOs 252Def Bold Clefable iirc).

Mega-Sableye has it's useful Mega Bounce tool, allowing it to be a great pivot against the likes of Skarmory, Ferrorthorn, or any other defensive pokemon who likes to set up hazards, or uses status moves like thunder wave, and will-o-wisp, right back at them. It has an impressive bulk too, allowing it to sponge respectable hits.

Anyway, what do you guys think of this new round? Do you think Sablenite and Shadow Tag deserve to be banned? What are your thoughts?

 

[Nolafus]

Shadow Tag needs to go, but why Mega-Sableye? It's a great defensive pivot, but I never really saw it as broken.

 

[gimmepie]

Pretty much what Nolafus said. Shadow Tag, certainly in conjunction with Scarf Gothitelle, is horrible for the metagame but mega-Sableye is hardly broken, especially with the abundance of fairy-types in the OU meta.

 

[Nah]

Are they planning to have separate votes for each one or is it if you vote ban/do not ban it counts for both ST and MSab? It'd be best if it's the former, since Shadow Tag is cancer while Mega Sableye is not.

 

[srinator]

i dont understand why they would consider mega sableye for a suspect test, this is like thinking of banning talonflame back when it first arrived, its a very good mon that actually does what its meant to do..... idgi
its no where near ban worthy

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

****ing finally.

Sableye isn't that bad, but Gothitelle is aids. Wobb should stay, so imo the best decision would be to ban the entire Goth family.

 

[Sirfetch’d]

Everyone saw the Shadow Tag/Goth test coming from a mile away. The Mega Sableye test though is kinda surprising. I don't really see it getting banned tbh. It's an annoyance at most but can easily be beaten with good status absorbers like Heatran. Clefable and Diancie are huge problems for it, any Fairy type can threaten it really, though some can't switch in due to wisp threats like Azu. Mega Lopunny also can pose as a huge threat to it. It punishes teams who aren't prepared for it but overall it's not too overbearing on the meta imo.

 

[punkysaur]

Well i can accept the need to ban shadow tag on gothitelle but if it gets banned completely from ou what abt other shadow tag users such as wobbufet whose one of the usp is its ability.
That as i think would make wobbufet no more usable in ou
As for sablenite,sigh!

 

[Dark Azelf]

Wobb isnt broken. Wobb cant do its job to the utmost of its capabilities (i.e to remove threats) without Tickle being on the set and Pursuit support. Otherwise if you dont attack it you're good. If something takes support to be good its not broken. It is also totally reactive and passive to what the opponent does with no offensive presence, Rest, Trick, CM or T-Wave etc which is why it isnt broken and goth is. Goth literally has one positive aspect it brings to ou and that is crippling the cancerous Manaphy and Togekiss and other aids stuff that just totally goes under the radar. Goth is still broken though.

Mega Sableye is a joke of a suspect test, really. There are plenty of rock setters that are standard which it doesnt want to come in on at all. If you lose to msable, sorry you are just a bad and lazy team builder. Faieries, Heatran, fire types, Manaphy, Cune etc and the like all exist and can all set up on it and absorb status. If you are honestly telling me you cannot fit one of those or a pokemon like it on your team which are all common OU pokemon, then you need to quit pokemon because you are awful at teambuilding, sorry not sorry its true. I also feel msables presence is healthy because entry hazards are very centralizing, msable punishes poor and lazy team building and i think its a positive aspect of the game when you cannot just spam hazards and double switch to beat/wear down stall, same with those shitty taunt+wisp/toxic sets people use and are like "hurrr durr am safe from stalll aaaaa sable walls my mindless **** ban ban ban i cant teambuild". Heaven forbid oras introduced defensive Pokemon you cannot just cookie cutter through (mbro is another) and you have to THINK to stallbreak these days. Wow hard concept to grasp isnt it!

Anyway, there is an hilarious bias against one particular stall archetype with this supect test, another reason its a joke, that being sablegoth. The only reason those teams are broken is because goth nulls or cripples like 99% of breakers. Its even more amusing when we consider Manaphy and Hoopa-U were completely ignored. Despite them getting attention, enough said really.

 

[Nah]

Well i can accept the need to ban shadow tag on gothitelle but if it gets banned completely from ou what abt other shadow tag users such as wobbufet whose one of the usp is its ability.
That as i think would make wobbufet no more usable in ou

While Wobbuffet certainly isn't broken or anything, I think that losing it (and Wynaut) from OU in exchange for getting rid of Shadow Tag Gothitelle is a very small price to pay.

 

[punkysaur]

While Wobbuffet certainly isn't broken or anything, I think that losing it (and Wynaut) from OU in exchange for getting rid of Shadow Tag Gothitelle is a very small price to pay.

I would prefer rather banning shadow tag only on goth.That makes sense to me more

 

[Syndrome]

Just get rid of Shadow Tag. There are more serious threats than Sableye that could have been tested.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I just think banning shadow tag as a whole is silly when its just goth that is broken. Its like banning sheer force and Nidoking because Landorus-I was broken. :s

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

I just think banning shadow tag as a whole is silly when its just goth that is broken. Its like banning sheer force and Nidoking because Landorus-I was broken. :s

do you think gothorita is broken?

 

[Anti]

i think trapping is an inherently uncompetitive mechanic because it places too great of an inhibition on one of the major tenets of skill in the game, switching. i don't want to spell this out too much, but i basically feel this way because the threat of a trapper also seeps into other skill-based aspects of the game, especially risk management and prediction. i know no one is going to ban magnet pull and that's fine because i think you can easily make an argument about magnezone being healthy for the metagame (though i wouldn't agree with it) because of how it affects metagame balance with respect to steel-types (and clefable), but i don't think you can really make that case for gothitelle or even wobbuffet. i think d_a is arguing that wobbuffet isn't broken per se, but from my point of view, this isn't really relevant. i think we can nitpick the choice of what is tested, but i think wobb is fine as collateral to remove goth, and i don't think it's a terrible precedent regardless. ban shadow tag.

as for sableye, i'd want to see it in a metagame without goth. goth+sableye is broken as ****. i would want to see sableye function in the metagame without gothitelle and prove itself to be broken before i'd ban it. i'm not at all convinced that's the case. do not ban sablenite.

 

[Professor_Jared]

I completely understand the need for Gothitelle and the Shadow Tag ability to go, but Mega Sableye?

Are you serious bro?


Fairy types (Especially Calm Mind-Magic Guard/Unaware Clefable) , and/or Heatran laugh at it, not to mention that Mega Lopunny can hit it hard with its Scrappy ability and the Mega Zards can check it quite nicely. Provided that Mega Sableye doesn't have Calm Minds up (For Y) or is carrying Foul Play (For X).

Oh yeah, and let's not forget about fire pokemon in general and Mold Breaker Pokemon carrying taunt like Mega Gyarados and Haxorus.

 

[Megan]

I somewhat get the feeling this suspect isn't about banning Mega Sableye or Gothitelle/ST, but more of an attempt to keep Goth/ST in the meta. While there are a lot of people supporting a Goth/ST ban, there's also those people that think they are anything but broken. So by suspect testing all of them at once, they are trying to please everybody by saying "Hey, who knows, maybe it's just the combination of the two, that's broken and otherwise they are totally fine."

 

[Anti]

i wanted to pop back in to encourage everyone to read the post james made on smog about this. fwiw i find his usual "it's all anti-stall bias" chorus to be bs 90% of the time, but i find it pretty amazing that people think it's more restrictive than some offensive pokes in the metagame. i would be really disappointed if it got banned without goth to enable it.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

Gothitelle isn't broken; shadow tag is. If you disagree with this statement, please briefly explain to me how competitive gothitelle is in need of a ban as well.

But yeah I suspect reasons for Mega Sableye being thrown up there- reasons that aren't exactly "To create the perfect most balanced metagame". Imo keep both; ban shadow tag. Or - get real specific - just ban gothitelle with shadow tag. Keep other shadow taggers, keep gothitelle without shadow tag, just ban her with it.

 

[Nah]

The ideal thing I suppose would to be to just ban Shadow Tag on Goth, but I don't really see them doing that. It's always seemed to me like they tend to not like doing any remotely "complex" ban, with the exception this gen being Baton Pass.