Secrets, truth and misconceptions about Misty water pokemon master goal?

[weedle_mchairybug]

To clarify, I don't think Houen's Gym Leaders were intentionally meant to come off as weak and each of them did give Satoshi a hard battle (remember, Satoshi and Tessen had one fair battle - and Satoshi lost). Most of them actually had a distinct way of battling that allowed them to overcome things like type disadvantages, which is something I found to be a step up from most of the OS Gym Leaders and reflects how much better the writers were getting at doing Pokémon battles. I think the reason they don't come off as strongly as they should is because we rarely got a chance to see what makes them so strong before their battle with Satoshi and what he would have to do in order to beat them. The writers just had Satoshi improvise strategies on the spot in order to win for most of his battles, and it did AG's Gym Leaders a big disservice because they rarely got a chance to demonstrate their threat beforehand.

The majority of Sinnoh's Gym Leaders don't have this problem. Satoshi was crushed in his first battles with Hyouta, Natane, and Melissa (who also defeated Nozomi and Jun in their initial battles, as well) and could only manage a draw with Sumomo. And he got a chance to see Tougan and Denji (who, IIRC, was previously undefeated as a Gym Leader) in action before facing them, so he had an idea of what he was up against before the real battle with them. Most of them also had pretty well thought-out strategies, as well. So while I somewhat agree with you in your assessment of what was wrong with a good amount of Houen's Gym Leaders, I don't really think this applies for the majority of Diamond & Pearl. And it hasn't applied to any of the three Gym Leaders that Satoshi has faced in XY, either, since he was defeated in initial battles with Viola and Corni (who even has a Mega Lucario), and got to see Zakuro in action against Viola. His victories against at least two of them came because he knew how they battled, and built a strategy around that. Moreover, it's not only AG that has this issue. Satoshi had it a bit too easy against most of Jouto and Isshu's Gym Leaders - and the Kanto ones were just poorly-written overall.

Gym Leaders are meant to be strong, because otherwise there'd be no point in setting them up as important obstacles to beat on the way to the League. Takashi has explained that their purpose is to test the strength of the trainers who challenge them, and earning eight badges signifies that one is ready to enter the Pokémon League. I definitely agree that they're not "Masters" (because they have to lose at some point, and Sumomo and Corni - among others - show that even Gym Leaders have a lot to learn) and being Hanada City's Gym Leader doesn't mean that Kasumi has achieved her dream. But I don't think that makes Kasumi weak at all. Just being a Gym Leader means that Kasumi will have an important role to play in the growth of the trainers who face her, and almost certainly means that she's a strong trainer as well. But you're absolutely right in stating that it's not her dream. And since few major character are ever seen achieving their dreams in the anime, I don't believe we'll ever see that happen.

Can't comment on Unova's GLs since I never actually saw the series, not even brief snippits (while I have at least seen snippits of AG and certainly sat through the first few episodes of DP), nor have I read up much on them (though if what you are inferring is true, I have to change my tune on the Unova Gym Leaders to being even worse than the Hoenn Gym Leaders. Initially, I thought they might actually have been much better played, though only because Ash was treated as a complete idiot in that series, making even Indigo League Ash [who at least had his being a rookie as an excuse for some of his more questionable actions] seem smart by comparison, but your implication that Ash might have actually beat them with his rookie team for Unova in possibly an easier manner than Hoenn would suggest they're even more pathetic than I initially thought, making BW even worse than I had previously thought.). But the Johto GLs and Kanto GLs at least were actually shown to be somewhat strong. At least they didn't lose easily to rookies, unlike the Hoenn GLs, especially not on the first try.

Sure, about half of Kanto's badges were basically, as much as this is an inaccurate term, "pity badges" (since Brock gave it to Ash for showing honor, Erika and the Sensational Sisters gave it for saving the gym and overall heroics, and Sabrina gave it for making her laugh and basically teaching her to control her powers [not to mention Ash did technically win against Sabrina, so in that sense, only three did "pity badges"]), but the GLs, Sensational Sisters aside (we may not have actually seen them battle, but it was pretty clear they weren't good due to losing three times in a row to people from Pallet Town), were at least actually shown to be strong and very difficult, especially for rookie trainers/rookie Pokémon (Even Team Rocket during their brief stint as Gym Leaders actually took a level in badass and actually proved to be very difficult to beat. Sure, they still lost on the first try, but at least they didn't lose as pathetically as they did most times, with Episode 3 being an especially noteworthy loss.). And even in Johto, probably the only GL who actually was beaten on the first try was I think Falkner and possibly Claire (though feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken about that, since, while I have watched some episodes of Johto, many of which were from that pre-DP marathon on Cartoon Network, I can't say I've actually watched it from beginning to end), and even those were justified due to Ash using veteran Pokémon to win, and not rookies (in fact, when he actually used a rookie Pokémon, Chikorita, against Falkner, she actually lost easily).

All I ask is that if they want to have the GLs effectively be obstacles, they at least demonstrate that they aren't to be underestimated by actually SHOWING them beating the rookie members of Ash's team and not being beaten by them on the first try, as that just reflects very badly on the GLs, who are supposed to be, while admittedly not Elite 4 level, nonetheless forces to be reckoned with. Remember, Team Rocket lost to an inexperienced, barely even alive Caterpie despite them being far more experienced and especially more fresh by comparison in Episode 3 of not only the original series, but the entire Anime series as a whole (not to mention beating the Pidgeotto that was largely responsible for Caterpie's condition when Ash used it against them, and based on dialogue from Island of the Giant Pokémon, they had their Ekans and Koffing for at least a year, maybe longer, and Meowth most likely was around for far longer than even them), and thank to that, Team Rocket gained a reputation not only among the fans, but even in-universe based on some of Misty's comments to Ash in Kanto and even Johto, plus a bit of a slag from a computer-using trainer in Johto, of being extremely pathetic trainers, and this was despite their debut episode showing them to be dangerous enough that they actually have a wanted poster dedicated to them in Viridian City, not to mention actually doing a very vicious takeover of the Pokémon Center in the same episode. The disaster that was Hoenn is basically the same thing. That's what gets me irritated with this entire situation of rookie Pokémon beating GLs, especially on the first try. Second try, I can understand, but first try? It's largely thanks to AG's shabby treatment of GLs that I find Misty being made GL to be extremely insulting, especially when this came about AFTER Misty's removal and thus created rather unfortunate implications of what Misty might have to put up with. Honestly, the only GLs who actually might have been strong and skilled in Hoenn are Brawley (for actually beating Ash the first time around) and Roxanne (since she was at least beaten by Pikachu, who definitely wasn't a rookie by any means, and not one of Ash's rookie team members).

DP was admittedly slightly better than AG in that regard, but even that wasn't exactly a good outcome for the GLs. True, about the first three you mentioned managed to actually beat Ash (I'm not quite glad that Pikachu was beaten since he was supposed to be a veteran, not to mention having already beaten a Regice, who is supposed to be a Legendary, during the climax of the Battle Frontier without much effort, even if it was effectively a new addition to Brandon's team, meaning he's well above GL level, but I'm at least glad none of his rookie team members beat them on the first try), and even Maylene only ended with a draw. I would have been content with the outcome of the Volkner battle, but that wasn't actually a loss on Ash's part. They just postponed the battle thanks to Team Rocket attacking them and their driving them off basically damaging the Sunyshore electrical grid, thus needing time to repair the devices before they rematch. Still, at least it's something. Was hoping for more of something like Lt. Surge for the Gym Leaders, though.

@DBZ Fan: I guess you have a point there regarding Misty getting at least a bit stronger while at the Gym. And the bit about Misty actually "becoming" a Gym Leader was actually dub added? Heh. Funny, Dogasu's comparison didn't seem to indicate that bit was dub added. Probably the closest he got to indicating this was his coverage of Misty's final lines in the episode, and even then, the only difference he actually seemed to note in a somewhat flippant manner was that Brock was added into her dialogue and thus made the line "less shippy." Might as well ask since we're on this subject, was the "three u's" that the PIA alluded to that would result in an immediate ban [unclean, unsafe, and uncool] dub-added as well? Dogasu never commented on those at all in his comparison, which makes me think they were in the Japanese version as well (as why would he leave those out if they were dub-added?), but an Israeli Dawn Fan on BMGf/SPPf indicated they WERE dub-added, so I need some clarification.

Well, either way, even if Misty was getting somewhat stronger in the Gym, that doesn't change that the main series implied the exact opposite message by basically showing Hoenn's Gym Leaders to be complete and total wimps (exempting Brawley and possibly Roxanne. I'm not counting Norman among them since as I stated before, Ash's loss against him early in the series was nothing more than a cheap excuse to force Ash to go the route of the games, even though the writers could do what they did in Kanto and slightly deviate from the games in terms of Gym paths.). If this was how bad GLs were in AG, you can pretty much guess that Misty would actually be turned into a JJM clone the longer she stays at the Gym (especially JJM during "Ash Catches a Pokémon," the infamous scene where they lost to Ash's Caterpie despite it being flat out improbable, if not impossible for them to lose). If they really didn't have any other options but to remove Misty, they should have done so in a way where she actually could pursue her goals. Even Iris at least was allowed to pursue her goals, and that's not even getting into May and Dawn. Tracey managed to technically accomplish his goal, and even Brock and Gary Oak at least managed to change their goals of their own free will and not due to circumstances beyond their control forcing them to change their goals. And quite frankly, there was no excuse to NOT remove her, especially when Hoenn and AG actually gave plenty of opportunities to actually expand on her goal. It's almost as though they deliberately modeled Hoenn after Kyushu specifically to actually give Misty a chance at development, especially when they could have easily picked any of the other, more land-locked regions of Japan for the Third Gen region (Namely, Chubu, Shikoku, Chugoku, Tohoku, heck, they could even based it on Hokkaido before creating Almia/Sinnoh if they really wanted to), not to mention deliberately created a water-based crime syndicate and even a water/bug type specifically for Misty's development. I know Misty was definitely popular enough to actually be given a trophy in Super Smash Bros. Melee [and not just any incarnation of Misty, but Anime Misty], and they even had a Pichu Bros. special actually narrated by Misty in Pokémon Channel, and that was released AFTER her departure.

 

[Famon]

Yes, but in order to even become a champion, one has to challenge the various Gym Leaders, then win the league, then challenge that Elite 4 and beat them, then finally fight against and beat the regional Champion. You can't do that if you're just a gym leader, as that implies you are supposed to actually go out there and travel.

That for ordinary people like Ash. Gym-Leader has their own different way .
In ORAS , Steven decide to travel the world and Offer Wallace his spot as champion.
Ya , May be Wallace do need to fulfill some test but obviously doesn't has to travel and beat gymleader to take Steven's Offer .
Same goes with Iris , She become champion by training under Drayden and beating Alder when he retired .
Nowhere its said she travel ! Don't say ''Let assume She traveled & beat Gym-leader or else she wouldn't be a champion''

Yeah, and they could have easily just replaced him way back in Battle Frontier, and have a new guy travel. Guess what, they don't do that.

For 20 years , Fan been Asking ''Why haven't Ash became a Pokemon Master and let someone took over as The Protagonist ??
This Anime is about Ash going to the New Region of New Gen in order to Introduce new Pokemon for Merchandise Sales !
Thats Answer your question .

Regardless, what is stated IN THE SHOW makes clear travelling is the only way to truly get stronger. It's what was stated with Water Pokémon Masters, regular aspiring Pokémon Masters, heck, even Brock in his debut episode.

Its also started that its essential to bond with Pokemon in order to be strong trainer. That No trainer can be strong without forming a strong bond with his Pokemon.
Yet , Paul who doesn't even care to Know his Pokemon , Remain Stronger then Ash. It took 1 year for Ash to get 1 win out of him barely .

So Why ''Bond theory'' doesn't work on Paul ? Why Ash lose so Badly to him in 1st full battle even though his Bond with Pokemon is far stronger then Paul ?
Let me tell you Why ! The Series needed Ash to be inferior to Paul even if Paul doesn't bother bonding with Pokemon .

It doesn't matter Who said What When !!! If the series need it then the writer will do anything even if it goes against something well established.

They removed Misty only because they basically were forced to choose between her and Team Rocket, and frankly, they made the wrong choice. And besides, she actually proved to be strong while with Ash.

The Assistant director said himself that they replace Misty to bring new Eye-Candy !

No, there's no sign that she actually got stronger by becoming a Gym Leader (In case you've forgotten, her getting Gyarados was NOT due to her becoming a Gym Leader, it was because she had to conquer her fear of it). And if Misty was kept on the show, they probably would have her conquering her fear anyways.

And She never would gotten a Gyarados if she didn't gone back to Gym and tired to overcome her fear !
Plus , She actually taught Gyaradoes ''Flamethrower'' ! Something She never do while traveling with Ash.
Its Understandable , Misty is a Gym-leader now and she has to face all sort of ''Challenger'' with many different Pokemon So obviously she needed find some way for her Water Pokemon to deal with Grass & Electric Pokemon .

FYI : If You think that Misty battles Little Kids with Caterpie everyday then You are completely wrong .
Ash is still barely slightly-average Leveled Trainer and Misty to below him ! So its needless to say that there probably billion Challenger stronger then Ash & Misty .
The Level of Misty's oppoent depend on her reputation ! If She is a extremely famous Gym-leader then that mean She will face ''Tough challenger'' while ''Rookie trainers'' will be to intimidated to fight her .
However if Misty is a Weak Gym-leader then obviously her gym get targeted by weak & Rookie challenger .

You forgot Staryu, considering it beat Ash's Butterfree and was pretty much a powerhouse. And BTW, she actually managed to fight Molly toe-to-toe in the third movie, and considering that Molly's Pokémon and to a certain extent Molly herself were basically the same as Mewtwo's cloned Pokémon from the first movie as well as the Mirage Pokémon in the 10th anniversary special, that's DEFINITELY a very impressive feat (and bear in mind, that was BEFORE she became a Gym Leader). And the only time we actually saw her in action since her departure was in the Mirage Kingdom arc with Gyarados, and again, that is not really an indicator that the gym made her stronger.

Staryu A Powerhouse ???? For what , Lasting some second against Molly ???
Also , Staryu only beat Butterfree Because it has Field advantage Or else its wouldn't last a second.
If we go and look though BW Ash & Oshawott record then we can find a lot 'Very Impressive Feat'' similar to Misty.
But That doesn't change that BW Ash was worst version of Ash While Oshawott was a Disappointment.

Yeah, and she'd still need to actually travel, whether it be with Ash or not, for her to actually accomplish this. Heck, even Flint, Brock's dad, strongly implied that the gym was actually negatively affecting Brock's potential and that he needs to actually travel to actually meet his potential (this was right after Ash's loss against Brock in his debut episode, BTW. He basically stated that Brock's potential was enough that he actually could go challenge the Pokémon League if he so desired, but largely stayed behind at the gym to raise his siblings after his parents abandoned them, with Ash implying that Brock honestly should pursue the leagues if he was that strong, which really gives the implication that GLs while strong in their own right, are definitely not going to amount to Champion or even Elite 4 levels if they stay at the gym.).

Hmm , Let see ,
Brock Father , The guy that left The gym to travel in order to be a Strong Trainer But later Falling to Become a Strong trainer and too embarrassed to came back home causing Brock to shoulder all his Responsibility.
Do you think , Brock's Father word mean Anything ? Traveling sure didn't made him stronger .

Besides, considering how AG and beyond basically butchered Gym Leaders by making them no different than JJM, especially their loss in Episode 3 against a Caterpie, I wouldn't put much stock into her becoming stronger as a Gym Leader.

AG Gym-leader were just as strong as Other Gym-leader .
If we go by your theory Then It will take 3 year for every new Trainer to participate in Pokemon League .

Ah, yeah, actually, they would in fact "give a dam crap" about her goal. Or do I really have to remind you that it was the writers who WROTE the Whirl Cup in the first place and actually constantly mentioned that Water Pokémon Master goal, and they gave more details on how that goal is to be achieved and the symptoms of it than even Ash's goal.

Hmmm , I don't know
May be , Because writers were Planning to Kick Misty Out in Next Series .
I mean , The Original Kento didn't give a dam care to reveal her Goal But suddenly they start ''Caring'' for her during Master quest .
They were planning to kick Misty Out and That Why They wrote ''Whirl Cup'' for her .
Just Like , DP Series heavily focused on Brock's talent as a Doctor ! The series wanted to showcase him as a Potential Pokemon Doctor before Kicking him out.

FYI : Different people had different theory regarding Misty's Goal ! But because your theory work out doesn't mean everyone thought the same.

Okay, first off, what is there to explain about his being a breeder means? Maybe I should remind you that a breeder is someone who, you know, actually breeds Pokémon. Think those day care centers in the games. Now, other than Happiny and Togepi, I will admit that they didn't actually focus on his breeder goal, but I think common sense would dictate what the goal actually amounts to.

And how a 10 year old Boy like me suppose to knew that Brock job is to make 2 Pokemon mate so they can create a Egg ???
Since , Brock didn't do anything that involve his 2 Pokemon mating .
Not Just that ,
For year , We had no idea about what Brock trying to achieve ! How can he become a Top Breeder ? Does he has to win Some Beauty contest ?

And After 14 year , Brock suddenly acknowledge that he didn't achieve anything as Breeder and change his goal .

Yeah, and her goals were similar enough to Misty's.

So Do you want Misty to be an undeveloped glorified version of Iris

Ah, Orange Islands and Battle Frontier? Those were tournaments that last for more than two episodes. Sure, he ended up continuing his journey anyways, rendering the wins pointless. but it doesn't change the fact that he actually won them. Also, BW was actually the most loathed version of Ash. That one is probably the closest Ash will ever get to entering the Scrappy Heap, thanks to some stupid decisions the writers made, so don't even mention Ash's popularity. In fact, it was bad enough that XY was even mentioned to be the time Ash actually was rescued from the scrappy heap in TVTropes.

Those Are Battle Facility , Not Tournament !!.
And What happen after Ash won them ?
He gone back home and got his Ass-kicked By Gary .
It would be much better if Ash just train like Gary rather then wasting his time with those worthless Facilities .
There are So Many ''Challenger'' better then Ash But Drake was undefeated until Ash faced him ! Logical answer , Strong Trainers does waste time on Orange League.

Except those Gym Leaders are strongly implied to have gone out and travelled, fought other Gym Leaders, then fought in the Pokémon League, won that, fought the Elite 4, then fight and defeat the reigning Champion to become Champion themselves (since that's the only way beyond some sort of academy to actually do that kind of stuff). They didn't get the position by just sitting at a gym. Are you really that dense, pardon my bluntness?

Where its said that they traveled .
Don't try to Say '' Since they become Type-master mean they traveled Or else they wouldn't be type Masters !!!
There is no Implication !
If there is Then show it .

Yeah, and Movie 3 had Misty going toe-to-toe against Molly, who was using what effectively amounted to hacked Pokémon (and for the record, "average" Pokémon can't even fight hacked Pokémon). And she actually got Top 8 in the Whirl Cup, which is definitely not something you can dismiss. And technically, Goldeen never actually battled, period. Oh, and Starmie was definitely able to handle a few hits from Pidgeotto.

Goldeen did Battle mutlple time and got its ass kicked everytime .
I'm rewatching the Original Series in Hungama TV So don't try to test my Memory .
And being Top 08 at While Cup isn't as Impressive as ya think considering Misty won 1 battle with luck and Another due to Ash's Mistake .
Its like saying how impressive it was for BW Ash to be Top 08 in Unova League !

Actually, she technically is (Pokémon Puzzle League, anyone? She was playable in that. Granted, it was in vs. mode only, but still). And considering Brock's popularity was enough to bring him back, it most certainly means something with Misty.

Doesn't Count!

Besides, need I really remind you about how AG and even DP basically butchered their Gym Leaders by making them extremely weak? Losing easily to Pokémon who were total rookies like how JJM lost to Caterpie in Episode 3? Do you HONESTLY want Misty coming out as pathetic as them?! Probably the only GL who was even remotely decent was Brawley (since Ash actually lost to him first time around) and possibly Norman (and even the latter was just so they'd have an excuse for Ash to essentially skip a gym to follow the path of the games, even though Pikachu was clearly more powerful and experienced than him).

I'm sick of you complaining about Ash beating AG & DP Gym-Leader with his New Pokemon !
What Ya Want ? Ash to spend 3 year to get badge from them ?
AG & DP Gym-Leader were 10 time stronger then Misty was during Original Series.
Ash won because he use Tactic and train his Pokemon to fight those Gym-Leader .
In AG , Ash won his 1st gym-battle with his most experience Pokemon Pikachu! But he had to train every day to master Iron tail .
Ash already got experience ! All he has to do is train his Pokemon and come up with better tactic to beat Gym-leader.
FYI : The Anime no longer follow a Pokemon ''Level'' .
Also , Gym-Leader themselves use weaker Pokemon to fight ! You can see that in the Game where Gym-leader use Stronger pokemon during rematch .

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Honestly, no matter how I or DBZ Fan will explain it, you still won't listen, so why even bother refuting your points even though you are clearly wrong on all accounts (for starters, Iris refused the position of Gym Leader in the Anime, which is what matters here, with the games at best being secondary, even then only if it actually matches up with what the Anime stated, especially when the anime doesn't even FOLLOW the remakes plot points meaning what ORAS stated means absolutely nothing for what the Anime stated [not to mention the Anime doesn't even follow that plot point from B2W2. In fact, Iris explicitly refused to actually train under the current gym leader from B2W2 and made clear she still intended to travel, which had your statement about her been accurate to the anime, Iris definitely would have accepted the offer especially when she was due to leave the main cast at the end of the series shortly thereafter anyways], and even Candice made clear she wanted to leave the gym and promised Zoey to go for the leagues. Oh, and for the record, Flint also knows Brock's strengths well [to the extent that he initially implied that Ash didn't stand a chance against him, something that was quickly proven correct in the first fight against him], so regardless of his not returning home in shame, he definitely knew what he was talking about, at least in regards to his own son.) I'll leave either Lizardo or DBZ Fan to deal with you, since I see little point to refuting your arguments due to the huge amount of flaws in there. That being said, I will address your last point because I can't really believe just how dense and small-minded that post was.

I'm sick of you complaining about Ash beating AG & DP Gym-Leader with his New Pokemon !
What Ya Want ? Ash to spend 3 year to get badge from them ?
AG & DP Gym-Leader were 10 time stronger then Misty was during Original Series.
Ash won because he use Tactic and train his Pokemon to fight those Gym-Leader .
In AG , Ash won his 1st gym-battle with his most experience Pokemon Pikachu! But he had to train every day to master Iron tail .
Ash already got experience ! All he has to do is train his Pokemon and come up with better tactic to beat Gym-leader.
FYI : The Anime no longer follow a Pokemon ''Level'' .
Also , Gym-Leader themselves use weaker Pokemon to fight ! You can see that in the Game where Gym-leader use Stronger pokemon during rematch .

Just because Ash himself had experience DOESN'T mean his rookie team was experienced. In fact, I should point out that there was a sports movie, Rebound, that featured a Coach who actually taught the big leagues formerly before he got kicked out for being a jerk. He ended up training a Middle School basketball team in order to make up for his behavior, and he effectively cost them their first game despite his experience largely due to the team being inexperienced (and his actions in "coaching" certainly didn't help either), especially compared to the big leagues. Same deal with Bad News Bears (not just the original, but also the remake). And I already noted Roxanne as being a possible exception alongside Brawley.

Let me also remind you about what happened in Episode 3 of the entire series, never mind the original series, and what happened that directly resulted from that: Ash basically got his Caterpie nearly killed by Pidgeotto due to sheer stupidity (even a rookie should know that it's a tremendously bad idea to pit a caterpillar-like Pokémon against a bird-like Pokémon). Then, before he even had any chance to actually rest up, he ended up having to fight against Team Rocket, who actually took down his Pidgeotto (the same one that nearly killed his Caterpie and ate as a post-breakfast snack) down fairly easily without breaking a sweat. As Pikachu was blinded and prevented from even battling earlier, Ash was forced to use Caterpie against them. You'd think that, putting aside the fact that he was near-dead for a moment, the Ekans and Koffing they were using clearly had more experience than him, not to mention Jessie and James were not only far more experienced than Ash, but were also so dangerous they actually had a wanted sign in Viridian City on the police station and actually did a particularly vicious raid on the Pokémon Center and actually forced Ash to run when they came after him, that Caterpie didn't even stand a chance, right? WRONG! They ended up not only beaten by that Caterpie, but also utterly humiliated by him as well and torn through like tissue paper, and Caterpie did the same thing to Meowth when he stepped into battle. And it's thanks to that infamous battle among others that Team Rocket is considered extremely pathetic trainers not only by us fans, but even in-universe by the likes of Misty and even COTDs. It's exactly the same scenario here with especially AG.

And if the AG and DP trainers were truly "10 times stronger" than Misty, Ash would have used vets only to take them out, and in fact, his rookie Pokémon would have been sent straight to the ER like what happened against Lt. Surge, because strong, experienced pokemon don't lose against weak, inexperienced pokemon easily. I'll give you that DP actually improved over AG in that regard, but they still lost against rookies.

And BTW, even Lizardo pointed out how the Gym Leaders seemed weak largely because of how they were treated in Hoenn, just like I did, and implied the same was the case with Unova. Are you going to try to dismiss him with that argument as well? And unlike me, he's actually WATCHED AG from start to finish, so he would know.

And for the record, I wasn't talking about game levels or experience points at all, I was talking about a character being "experienced." You know, veterans, having actually gone through these things for quite a while and knowing what they're doing, instead of being rookies? That kind of stuff.

One last bit, Misty's not weak at all, especially prior to becoming Gym Leader (heck, in that School of Hard Knocks episode, her Starmie actually beat a Bellsprout with little problem, and this was despite being at a type disadvantage. And it beat an Oddish as well in the episode Bulbasaur debuted. Heck, it's not even clear if Starmie was actually down and out before Team Rocket interfered with the match. Don't forget, if Ash's Caterpie could beat Team Rocket despite being extremely weak and inexperienced, Misty's Starmie actually has those same chances, especially when it was pretty clearly more experienced that Ash's Pidgeotto and besides which has a pretty easy way of recovering by just going back into the pool and making sure it avoided Pidgeotto's attacks.). And BTW, placing Top 8 in the Whirl Cup is not an easy feat or something to dismiss lightly, so she's definitely not weak (don't forget, she didn't just have to beat Ash to reach that level, as she also had to fight several other trainers before him). And the fact that she even lasted a while against Molly, enough to actually GIVE her a run for her money despite using what amount to hacked Pokémon, is definitely NOT to be taken lightly, especially when she already managed to beat Brock and it was stated that her Pokémon were invincible. And okay, Goldeen did enter some battles, but it's still incorrect that it only lost battles. Don't forget, it also beat James' Weepinbell (yes, Weepinbell, as his Victreebel was given to the Magikarp Salesman, and at least Goldeen actually DID beat a Pokémon it could handle and despite clearly being at a type disadvantage. If people are going to claim Ash is skilled because he beat Pokémon despite being at a type disadvantage, the exact same thing applies to Misty and any other trainer.). And need I really remind you that she actually did manage to nearly beat Ash's Chikorita despite it having the type advantage in the fight for Totodile? Those are not signs of a weak trainer, ESPECIALLY during the time she was on the main cast. No matter how you spin it, Misty was far from being weak during her time on Ash's group.

Oh, and for the record, Takeshi Shudo also made clear in his blogs that Misty was removed because they had to choose between either her or Team Rocket. Yes, there was the eyecandy bit, but that wasn't the only reason, and even Shudo largely regretted her removal based on some of his blog entries.

One last thing, if I had your pessimistic attitude about the show, I wouldn't even bother thinking they were either strong or weak, because it would have been pointless to do so. In other words, I still wouldn't have considered Misty weak, the only difference being I wouldn't consider her strong or even average either. I'd in effect be a nihilist in the truest sense of the word, holding no meaning in ANYTHING the show has to offer at all.

Sorry for being blunt, but it just is agonizing just how badly-thought out your arguments were, often contradicting yourself in ways even most people would not contradict yourself with. I get you are currently cynical about the show, lots of us are, even the writers, but that doesn't give you the right to simply rip Misty and make false accusations about her.

EDIT: And honestly, I'm pretty sure even 10 year olds would know what a breeder is (and besides, the games at least made very clear what a breeder does, which is basically get two Pokémon to mate and then raise baby Pokémon, and considering Brock was doing similar things with Happiny and even Togepi when they were eggs in the anime, it's pretty clear as it is what the breeder goal was supposed to imply even there. Don't forget the games are pretty much geared towards that age bracket as well.).

 

[DBZ fan]

@DBZ Fan: I guess you have a point there regarding Misty getting at least a bit stronger while at the Gym. And the bit about Misty actually "becoming" a Gym Leader was actually dub added? Heh. Funny, Dogasu's comparison didn't seem to indicate that bit was dub added. Probably the closest he got to indicating this was his coverage of Misty's final lines in the episode, and even then, the only difference he actually seemed to note in a somewhat flippant manner was that Brock was added into her dialogue and thus made the line "less shippy." Might as well ask since we're on this subject, was the "three u's" that the PIA alluded to that would result in an immediate ban [unclean, unsafe, and uncool] dub-added as well? Dogasu never commented on those at all in his comparison, which makes me think they were in the Japanese version as well (as why would he leave those out if they were dub-added?), but an Israeli Dawn Fan on BMGf/SPPf indicated they WERE dub-added, so I need some clarification.

I dont know why this wasnt brought up on his website. Maybe he overlooked it but from several sources i talked to Misty was referred multiple times as Cerulean, Hanada gym leader in OS and in Cerulean Blues there was no mention of her never beng one prior to that. Speaking of whole issues with PIA agents threatening to shut down gym, i dont know exact words in original version since i didnt asked about that detail, but in both versions gym was in danger of being closed down if left unattended. Which was changed in later sagas with rules seeming less strict because Fantina leaves gym for months without substitute and there are no problems. And Alexa sister Viola is known for being absent from her gym for long time as well when going on journey to either photograph or compete in tournaments like Battle Chateau.

Either way whether Misty improves as trainer or not is beside the point because gym position cannot make her water master. Since tournaments like Whirl Cup showed you need to enter and win soecific tasks to earn such title, showcase your abilities and inteligence in battles being acknowledged among other water specialists in world and in order to become one of strngest water trainers in world you would need to reach E4 levek of skill, strength and adaptability. With Misty herself admiring E4 Lorelei dreaming to reach such power creep herself.

As well not being possible to truly unlock full potential of your pokemon potential and trainer abilities without mega evolving them. Which what coincidence E4 Siebld is capable of doing as first E4 member of water pokemon and according to games water master.

True Hoenn had several amazing opportunities to have Misty actively involved within plot.

Team Aqua which wanted to abuse legendary Kyogre for their own immoral plans. Presence of all kind of new water pokemon like Surskit facing Misty with her biggest dilemma yet and fears, Fighting inside between her love for water and despise of bugs knowing it is half bug evolving in pure bug. Offering lot of potential for growth. Hoenn abounds with so many water rich areas, islands, exits to ocean etc allowing to break new grounds with her water master goal by introducing new competitions there as follow up from Whirl islands. Misty could had met water experts like Juan and Wallace learning new things from them. Even 9th movie was water centric featuring prince of sea manaphy being real shame how much potential to do more with Misty Hoenn offered and yet it was skipped over.

Although ironically Kalos series offer alot of potential to give Misty som meaningful growth toward her personality growth and progression of water dream too. Such as going on qurest to mega evolve her Gyarados or some other pokemon in case of catching it promoting mega Slowbro in main anime through her., Meeting E4 Siebold himself leaving her in shock and excitement feeling privileged to learn from water pokemon master himself and one of best water trainers in world how to be better trainer.Who could be hosting some big water tournament.

Compete in Battle Chateau serving as excellent way to learn new things and more efficient methods of battling developing adequate counters against pokemon types which have advantage over water(like grass or electric),

Kalos is based on France with Misty being very romantic dreaming to visit France in OS, Along with presence of Serena who has feelings for Ash just like she had or still for all we know does forming ground for some great interactions and meaningful way for both girls to develop from encounter.

That for ordinary people like Ash. Gym-Leader has their own different way .
In ORAS , Steven decide to travel the world and Offer Wallace his spot as champion.
Ya , May be Wallace do need to fulfill some test but obviously doesn't has to travel and beat gymleader to take Steven's Offer .
Same goes with Iris , She become champion by training under Drayden and beating Alder when he retired .
Nowhere its said she travel ! Don't say ''Let assume She traveled & beat Gym-leader or else she wouldn't be a champion''

Except that anime and games are two completely different medias. There is no any indication that for gym leaders there exist different standards and privileges over becoming champions than its case with other trainers whio have to do hard work and out lot of effort in reaching such position.

You cannot just become champion without passing tests, evaluazion and challenges pkemon league committee throws upon you in order to earn right to be even took in consideration. Which is case with games as well with Wallace not becoming champion as soon as he left gym mposition to Juan. Just like Koga spent three years away from gym befiore becoming E4 in second generation.

It doesn't matter Who said What When !!! If the series need it then the writer will do anything even if it goes against something well established.

It does matter, By trying to deny and completely change what canon of anime established before your just generating plotholes mssing up continuity, progression of storyline and anything which defined fictional characters path and their story as whole. Messing up completely series timeline, plots and development which happened before coming of just as bad and highly disrespctful writing.

You cannot simply ignore what writers said and introduced in this anime because that does not change fact how something exists and happened before.

And She never would gotten a Gyarados if she didn't gone back to Gym and tired to overcome her fear !
Plus , She actually taught Gyaradoes ''Flamethrower'' ! Something She never do while traveling with Ash.

There is no any legitimate evidence to suggest how Misty couldnt have met Gyarados being stuck with him in wild and having to confront her fears when traveling with Ash. Nor there exists anything to suggest how Misty couldnt be capable of earning Gyarados faithfulness while on journey befriending it and teaching attacks like flamethrower.

Your basing this on nothing really, especially when we know for fact how Misty trained her pokemon when she was on road with Ash such as Staryu, Corsola, Poliwhirl etc. Being mentioned how this took place of screen more than once.

If May could receive Blaziken, Dawn Mamoswine or Iris freaking Dragonite when traveling with Ash. Saying how Misty couldn't receive Gyarados while being in Ash company is clear use of double standards.

The Level of Misty's oppoent depend on her reputation ! If She is a extremely famous Gym-leader then that mean She will face ''Tough challenger'' while ''Rookie trainers'' will be to intimidated to fight her .
However if Misty is a Weak Gym-leader then obviously her gym get targeted by weak & Rookie challenger .

Thats another assumption out of nowhere., There is no any suggestion or implication in games or anime how challengers gym leaders will battle against will be based on how famous or reputable gym leader is. Volkner is reputable trainer, so is Blaine., Yet they specifically stated how they got tited iof battling weak trainers not bringing them anything on table to be learned from battles with them.

This even caused Volkner to lose interest in battling in general starting to give vadghes away until Ash faced him and impressed with high lvel of skills performed in their duel Restoring back Volkner passion for pokemon and battles.

Who will be facing Misty depends on vicinity of Cerulean gym to someone town or area where trainers are currently finding themselves. Certainly not on how much echo someone name leaves among people.

Staryu A Powerhouse ???? For what , Lasting some second against Molly ???
Also , Staryu only beat Butterfree Because it has Field advantage Or else its wouldn't last a second.

Staryu was reputed as one of most used, strongest and with lot of experience Misty pokemon.

Unlike Brock pokemon which got quickly curbstomped against Molly with Onix, Zubat and Vulpix not lasting even minute.

Misty Staryu was not just able to resist whirlpool and bubblebeam combination from Mantine without even being affected. But it was capable of completely neutralizing it with speed of its rapid spinning being completely equal in strength against Mantine when diving down on each other.

If that was ordinary Mantine than yes this wouldnt be impressive, But it was mentioned by Brock in third movie how Molly pokemon were several times stronger than normal real ones with Molly Mantine being at least double stronger than ordinary one. Yet Staryu still managed to hold its ground against it revealing high level of experience.

Also field advantage can work both ways. Butterfree had advantage of flying over Staryu makjing it harder for Misty to hit it effectively with her pokemon attacks.

Part of someone skill , knowledge and wisdom is in making best use of field to your advantage as well. With Misty using water terrain smartly to avoid Butterfree powders and deliver element of surprise making it harder for bug pokemon to predict from where Staryu is going to emerge on surface in attempts of taking him down.
Or we are suddenly going to pretend how Ash creative use of various battle fields such as heating rock terrain immobilizing Gary Blastoise or using ice pillars as means to increase Chimchar agility on ice against Candice was fluke as well not deserving those wins?

Regardless of water terrain or not you cannot pull assumptions out of nowhere, because there is nothing to say battle couldnt be won by Staryu without water pool as well. Proving to posess means and techniques required to disperse Butterfree spores and powders such as rapid spin or water gun scattering Weezing smog more than once.

Hmm , Let see ,
Brock Father , The guy that left The gym to travel in order to be a Strong Trainer But later Falling to Become a Strong trainer and too embarrassed to came back home causing Brock to shoulder all his Responsibility.
Do you think , Brock's Father word mean Anything ? Traveling sure didn't made him stronger .

Obviously not every person would succeed as trainer lacking courage, determination, fighting spirit and talent to get them somewhere. Hence making difference between talented and subpar trainer.

Brock father proved that by failing both as gym leader and as traveling trainer. Because ever since he took over gym allowing Brock to travel he had very little success with it with Brock mother Lola quickly defeating him and turning gym in circus full of decorations, water pool etc wanting to change it in water based battlefield.

In contrast Brock who traveled with Ash through Kanto and Johto by that point thanks to new unorthodox battle strategies he discovered when seeing Ash and other trainers battle while exploring world was able to defeat Lola at her own game. Making crafty use of Onix by commanding dig to drain field out of water sending it in hole Onix made. Leaving Mantine helpless, less maneuverable and agile leveling out chances in Onix favor netting him win eventually.

If you never travel just sitting at some facility your completely dependant on other trainers whim and if someone strong will come and battle you. You cannot develop more creative battle strategies at home because your never competing st other strong tournaments, meeting all kind of powerful high class trainers in world who are ahead of you in planning and strategy nor you can truly reach full potential that way.

Limiting yourself greatly leading to nothing but stagnation.

By traveling your opening all kind of doors and opportunities to put your knowledge and skills to much higher level.
By meeting all kind of powerful trainers around world drawing valuable experience when battling them. Developing more effective and complex battle style, find themselves in all kind of unexpected situation seeing different usage of pokemon and strategy which they dont encounter at gym, learn more about pokemon types by exploring world obsderving them in nsatural habitat along with entering tournaments with high competition. Facing plethora of powerful trainers and all kind of diverse battle styles and attack combnations you could never encounter at gym.

Why else do you think so many gym leaders travel? Candice travels, Fantina leaves gym for months angering other challenges to develop new battle techniques and more unpredictable strategies. Whole point behind Cilan joining Ash is because he realized when Ash defeated him with Oshawott despite Pansage having type advantage how by traveling you can expand on your imagination and out of box thinking. Allowing him to become more innovative and resourceful. This started to show in beating Trip Gurdurr through Crustle combination of shell smash and rockslide dealing more damage than usual. Or using smartly Pansage solar beam to get him out of ice block defeating Abomasnow. Cilan himself mentioned quite a few times how Ash out of box strategies served as inspiration to "spice up" his battles developing more effective strategies.Clemont is for same reason traveling with Ash realizing how only by traveling he can become more brave, poised, confident and complete trainer.

By traveling you casn learn how to unlock ancient, hidden power of your pokemon. By mega evolving them which you cannot do at gym.
You can catch all kind of new pokemon unavailable in region where you live making your pokemon roaster more diverse and ready for every situation. Why else would Clair made such a long trip all the way to Unova to catch Druddigon stating herself how there are no such pokemon residing in Johto.

By traveling you can enter all kind of powerful tournaments facing all kind of trainers, unique battling styles and attack combination you would never see as gym leader. Making yourself recognized for your knowledge, abilities and sharp thinking among all kind of powerful trainers around world putting your expertozer to much higher level.
Why else would Viola and Grant use any opportunity they have to battle in Bsttle Chateau tournaments?

Because challengers they face at gym are nowghere near as strong ike those they battle at tournaments asre learning much,. much more that way.

Some gym leaders are blessed by having substitutes allowing them to travel without interruptions like Cilan , Clemont or Wallace are when he left gym to JUan. While some dont have someone to fill up for them making only shorter journeys like Roark, Candioce, Fantina etc does. But fact of the matter is how most who can travel knowing how that way they can gain much more knowledge and experience than they ever cpould if they just stayed at gym stagnating.

Traveling is even more important for those who wants to become something more than gym leader like Misty. Because at gym you wont be able to enter strong, filled with elite trainers competitions, tournaments ike Whirl Cup, develop such sophisticated and diuverse battle techniques reaching E4 level of power,. Learn how to use water specie to msaximum of their abilities going beyond limits like you could by mega evolving them collecting needed stones an d spoending time in wild to reach closer to your pokemon inner self making stronger bond which is vector in commencing whole process etc.

I mean , The Original Kento didn't give a dam care to reveal her Goal But suddenly they start ''Caring'' for her during Master quest .

Misty had goal in Kanto as well. Stating several times how she wants to become strongest water trainer in world learning as much as she can about them openly confronting others who wanted to do them harm like Nastina when poluting ocean or attempting to steak her pokemon like that guy with Farfetched . Which was continued to be mentioned in Orange Islands reveaing how Misty has interest in becoming strong like E4 members are heavily idolizing Lorelei and being fascinated by her pliable use of water pokemon.Battling other water trainers like Marina with Golduck.

Just to be continued in Johto series stating she wants to show whole world how unique and powerful water pokemon are planning to become best water trainer there is winning various challenges like SEaking tournament, Alto Mare and Balloon race, challenged gym leader demonstrating her sleight in underwater battes, facing all kind of trainers. Term water master wasnt used in Kanto, but it started to be used in Johto and if im not mistaken Orange Islands with wruters defining better Misty desire to become best water expert world ever saw showing to mean becoming water pokemon master.

Focus on Misty dreams and expertize about water pokemon started to be present in Kanto, but at that time it wasnt properly defined yet with series being in their craddle with writes just starting out and needing time to find right tune through which they would push things forward. Along with not being experienced in handling out properly protagonist goals like they would become in later sagas.

FYI : Different people had different theory regarding Misty's Goal ! But because your theory work out doesn't mean everyone thought the same.

You can only theorize to certain degree. But based on facts i present in opening post there exists tasks and tests you need to pass to earn title of water master which writers showed to us in pokemon series being indisputable.

And how a 10 year old Boy like me suppose to knew that Brock job is to make 2 Pokemon mate so they can create a Egg ???
Since , Brock didn't do anything that involve his 2 Pokemon mating .
Not Just that ,
For year , We had no idea about what Brock trying to achieve ! How can he become a Top Breeder ? Does he has to win Some Beauty contest ?

Brock goal was explained multiple times to mean type of trainer who dont battles and train their pokemon for fghts. But learn how to keep them in top shape, groom them, prepare all kind of foods and potions for pokemon raising them and bringing their inner strength on surface in other ways than regular trainers do.

This was displayed several times by Brock learning about new types of food making them ike pokeblocks and pokepuffs. By applying his abilities as care taker and reveal more of his caring and compassionate side when healing pokemon or helping them in overcoming issues. Such as baby Stantler, Sharpedo with who he spent whole night in warming him and healing from poison. Injured Nuzleaf, Solrock who was misjudged by people from village, Shayming from Marlene etc. While apppying wisdom and knowledge about pokemon nature and feelings in helping them to find love partner(in teaching Ash Totodile how to approach Azumarill or to solve issue in feud between angry pokemon like Magnezone and Metagross).Etc.

Receiving his very first pkemon egg Happiny putting lot of love and devotion in raising it to powerful Chansey using this beeeder knowledge to full potential.

Whole thing about mating between pokemon and producing eggs was doomed to failure. Because its anime aimed primarily at school kids and introducing any sexual implications and what is whole process behind pokemon reproduction would be way too controversial for this anime. Hence why Brock breeding career was explored in different wys.

Only issue was that he did not receied enough screen time and development as whole with writers mainly focusing his role of bering like mentor and care taker of Ash and others giving advices, looking after them to not get themselves in danger and balancing out clash, tension and differences in personalities between Ash and others with his wisdom, maturity and attainment.

Where its said that they traveled .
Don't try to Say '' Since they become Type-master mean they traveled Or else they wouldn't be type Masters !!!
There is no Implication !
If there is Then show it .

There is not only implication but actual proof. Whole point of Iris being sent on journey by dragon elder from village is to become dragon master. Develop stronger bond with dragons through journey exploring world, meeting newe kind of pokemon, battling ad learning from other dragon specialists like Drayden, Clair, Cynthia etc drawing valuable experience. Had chance to meet legendary dragon pokemon like Rayquaza or REshiram. Enter variouds tournaments like Don George battle competition or Junipor Cup weighting her strength and resourcefulness against other trainers etc.

Only those who proved themselves to people from dragon village will be given title of dragon master.Having to prove their worth through battles, understanding better dragon feelings and becoming noticeable for high level of expertize among other strong trainers in world. With Cynthia and Alder recognizing potential in Iris.

Same applies to Misty,. She was already accomplished gym leader of Cerulean but she left to travel in order to achieve dream of becoming water pokemon master. Meeting various other water specialists like Marina, Andreas, Dorian or Trinity asessing her resourcefulness, innovation and sttength agaionst them.

She met her idol E4 Lorelei and various other high class trainers like Lance or Bruno. Sw all kind of new water okemon carching them such as Psyduck, Horsea, Poliwag or Corsola bringing more versatility to her team. She entered several competitions including Whirl Cup which no matter how many times you ignore it was portrayed as competition directly tied to Misty water master goal.

With those who want to become water pokemon master needing to enter and win such prestigue tournaments sharping their skills and coming to realization how to use water pokemon in most productive way against opponent both in water and outside of it turnuing disadvantage yoiur water pokemon has against others in advantage.

There are no shortcuts innvolved in here. Being required ti travel abd win such big tournaments to acquire watermaster title.

Needless to say your forgetting how Lance who is labelled as legendary dragon masrer constantly travels seeking for new knpwledge and helping stop villains. Cynthia who is one of best, if not best trainer in world(it was implied she might be pokemon master) travels from region to region battling others in tournaments and learning how to improve her batte abilities even more. Lorelei who is labeled as ice master doesnt do sitting at home doing jacksquat but travels, enter tournaments and measure her strength against other challengers discovering more effective and unusual ways of battling finding most optimal techniques and strategy to which your pokemon could adapt.

So yes pokemon anime made it pretty clear how any person which wants to become type master or became type master travels. Since that way you can see world, see new pokemon, compete in strong events gaining more experience than sitting at home and waiting in hopes of strong trainers coming to you.

Goldeen did Battle mutlple time and got its ass kicked everytime .
I'm rewatching the Original Series in Hungama TV So don't try to test my Memory .
And being Top 08 at While Cup isn't as Impressive as ya think considering Misty won 1 battle with luck and Another due to Ash's Mistake .
Its like saying how impressive it was for BW Ash to be Top 08 in Unova League

Goldeen battled 4 times in total never being used much by writers. Hence resulting in very little focus and decvelopment. But out of battles it participated in. It lost 3 times and won against James Victrebel. Making it weakest pokemon in Misty team.

Speaking of Whirl Cup coming top 8 on first try in such prestigue tournament is i dont know about you but definitely impressive feat.
Being stated in preliminary rounds how only most skilled, resourceful and proficient trainers will come in top 64. With lower rounds serving purpose of eliminating weak competition.

As for rest of your argument. "post hoc ergo propter hoc!"
Just because there was element of lucl involved does not mean battle was necessarly won through luck.

Luck is part of every battle but fact of the matter is how Corsola defeated Harrison Quilfish more through skill and better plannimg ahead than so much skill. Outsmarting him by reflecting his water based attacks through mirror coat and using recover to give Crsola edge in stamina and resiliance in that battle. Regardless of Quilfish ending stuck in Corsola horns or not, Misty would have won that match.

Speaking of her battle with Ash if i recall right Poliwhirl completely outclassed Ash Totodile overpowering him with speed and strength of physical attacks. With Ash mistake not meaning so much when taken in account how Misty wanted to use Corsola against Kngler with Psyduck sabotating her match. If anything Misty quick thinking and proper evaluation of disadvantage Psyduck caused to her turning this in her strength by ripping benefits of Psyduck headache was only testament to her intelligence and ability to adapt to any problem finding solution to it.

Which can only skilled trainers do. Fact that she gave Trinity run for her money defeating Gyarados with just one Corsola spoike cannon proves how strong and capable she is not being pushover.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

I dont know why this wasnt brought up on his website. Maybe he overlooked it but from several sources i talked to Misty was referred multiple times as Cerulean, Hanada gym leader in OS and in Cerulean Blues there was no mention of her never beng one prior to that. Speaking of whole issues with PIA agents threatening to shut down gym, i dont know exact words in original version since i didnt asked about that detail, but in both versions gym was in danger of being closed down if left unattended. Which was changed in later sagas with rules seeming less strict because Fantina leaves gym for months without substitute and there are no problems. And Alexa sister Viola is known for being absent from her gym for long time as well when going on journey to either photograph or compete in tournaments like Battle Chateau.

Well, I contacted Dogasu on the matter regarding the PIA agents. Let's hope he responds soon. I suspect he probably won't, but who knows, he did respond with the Mewtwo thing, and I did make clear I just wanted to know because it wasn't on his comparison and there's some debate about whether it was dub added or not. And I'm not so sure if the rules actually changed or if it was simply because Fantina was extremely lucky that it didn't occur on a PIA inspection.

Either way whether Misty improves as trainer or not is beside the point because gym position cannot make her water master. Since tournaments like Whirl Cup showed you need to enter and win soecific tasks to earn such title, showcase your abilities and inteligence in battles being acknowledged among other water specialists in world and in order to become one of strngest water trainers in world you would need to reach E4 levek of skill, strength and adaptability. With Misty herself admiring E4 Lorelei dreaming to reach such power creep herself.

Yeah, I agree with that. Besides, how can she truly improve, much less become skilled enough to become a Water Pokémon Master, if she's largely losing to rookies? That's actually more likely to detract from her skills, not improve them.

As well not being possible to truly unlock full potential of your pokemon potential and trainer abilities without mega evolving them. Which what coincidence E4 Siebld is capable of doing as first E4 member of water pokemon and according to games water master.

Yeah, and if she can't mega evolve them, she can't come close to being a Water Pokémon Master. Heck, if she can't even get her Psyduck to learn how to swim, how can she even come close to becoming a WPM anyways?

True Hoenn had several amazing opportunities to have Misty actively involved within plot.

Team Aqua which wanted to abuse legendary Kyogre for their own immoral plans. Presence of all kind of new water pokemon like Surskit facing Misty with her biggest dilemma yet and fears, Fighting inside between her love for water and despise of bugs knowing it is half bug evolving in pure bug. Offering lot of potential for growth. Hoenn abounds with so many water rich areas, islands, exits to ocean etc allowing to break new grounds with her water master goal by introducing new competitions there as follow up from Whirl islands. Misty could had met water experts like Juan and Wallace learning new things from them. Even 9th movie was water centric featuring prince of sea manaphy being real shame how much potential to do more with Misty Hoenn offered and yet it was skipped over.

Yeah, agreed. It's almost as though the game developers, knowing the Anime's ties to the games, had specifically created that region to give Misty more of a focus. We know they definitely liked Misty's Anime incarnation enough to actually model her game version more on her anime version (as is especially evident with HGSS and FRLG), something not even Brock managed to get. At the very least, the game people knew full well about the anime version of Misty's popularity and capitalized on it.

Although ironically Kalos series offer alot of potential to give Misty som meaningful growth toward her personality growth and progression of water dream too. Such as going on qurest to mega evolve her Gyarados or some other pokemon in case of catching it promoting mega Slowbro in main anime through her., Meeting E4 Siebold himself leaving her in shock and excitement feeling privileged to learn from water pokemon master himself and one of best water trainers in world how to be better trainer.Who could be hosting some big water tournament.

Yeah, those are good bets. Though unfortunately, Kalos actually has the fewest new-types of Water Pokémon.

Compete in Battle Chateau serving as excellent way to learn new things and more efficient methods of battling developing adequate counters against pokemon types which have advantage over water(like grass or electric),

That's actually going to be a nice improvement as well for her.

Kalos is based on France with Misty being very romantic dreaming to visit France in OS, Along with presence of Serena who has feelings for Ash just like she had or still for all we know does forming ground for some great interactions and meaningful way for both girls to develop from encounter.

Agreed. In fact, given the amount of focus and callbacks to the original series the Pokémon Anime main series has gotten recently, I wouldn't even be surprised if they actually are planning a Misty return in the near future. Besides, it's easier to get Misty to come back than for them to get May to come back as unlike KAORI, Mayumi Iizuka is still active in voice acting. I think Mayumi Iizuka even hinted on her Twitter Account at a potential reappearance a few months ago around May.

Except that anime and games are two completely different medias. There is no any indication that for gym leaders there exist different standards and privileges over becoming champions than its case with other trainers whio have to do hard work and out lot of effort in reaching such position.

Yeah, and besides, when has the Anime ever utilized plot points from the remakes? Even with FireRed and LeafGreen, the closest thing the Anime did with actually adapting the remakes onto the main anime, they focused more on the Battle Frontier aspect from Emerald than on FRLG itself, and HGSS never got a focus other than with the player characters making a brief appearance in the tag battle arc, and since ORAS just got a separate special that was clearly not in continuity with the main anime at all, chances are getting extremely unlikely that we'll be having Ash revisit Hoenn anytime soon, especially not for an ORAS adaptation.

You cannot just become champion without passing tests, evaluazion and challenges pkemon league committee throws upon you in order to earn right to be even took in consideration. Which is case with games as well with Wallace not becoming champion as soon as he left gym mposition to Juan. Just like Koga spent three years away from gym befiore becoming E4 in second generation.

Yeah, and one thing's for certain, Koga certainly didn't spend those three years sitting on his butt. And even Volkner implied that he might qualify for the E4 before being beaten fairly easily by Ash, yet enough to actually give him passion again in battling.

It does matter, By trying to deny and completely change what canon of anime established before your just generating plotholes mssing up continuity, progression of storyline and anything which defined fictional characters path and their story as whole. Messing up completely series timeline, plots and development which happened before coming of just as bad and highly disrespctful writing.

You cannot simply ignore what writers said and introduced in this anime because that does not change fact how something exists and happened before.

Yeah, writing and character development, not to mention actually trying to make sure you have good continuity and don't try to make a mess of things, is actually a rather key element with making a good story. The Metal Gear series and Star Wars have unfortunately gotten very divisive and made a lot of fans cynical because of their infamously often ignoring past story events and basically making things up as they go, often at the expense of actual good storytelling and continuity (those series are particularly infamous for several retcons their creators introduced that severely mess up the franchise. An especially notable example was the debate about whether Han or Greedo shot first due to an edit George Lucas added in, and to make matters worse, Lucas mentioned it had always been Greedo who shot first, and this is despite even the shooting script making clear Han was the one who shot first). In fact, Pokémon was very recently a victim of this with Best Wishes, as Famon should very much be well aware of, and look what happened to it. Even Pokémon itself is suffering from this with the decrease in ratings.

There is no any legitimate evidence to suggest how Misty couldnt have met Gyarados being stuck with him in wild and having to confront her fears when traveling with Ash. Nor there exists anything to suggest how Misty couldnt be capable of earning Gyarados faithfulness while on journey befriending it and teaching attacks like flamethrower.

Your basing this on nothing really, especially when we know for fact how Misty trained her pokemon when she was on road with Ash such as Staryu, Corsola, Poliwhirl etc. Being mentioned how this took place of screen more than once.

If May could receive Blaziken, Dawn Mamoswine or Iris freaking Dragonite when traveling with Ash. Saying how Misty couldn't receive Gyarados while being in Ash company is clear use of double standards.

Yeah, agreed, and in fact, having Misty actually capture a Gyarados while on the main cast would actually work for character development on her end, especially when it means having to conquer her fears in this area. And as you said, if those characters could do it (or heck, even Dawn getting Togekiss), Misty most certainly could as well.

Thats another assumption out of nowhere., There is no any suggestion or implication in games or anime how challengers gym leaders will battle against will be based on how famous or reputable gym leader is. Volkner is reputable trainer, so is Blaine., Yet they specifically stated how they got tited iof battling weak trainers not bringing them anything on table to be learned from battles with them.

This even caused Volkner to lose interest in battling in general starting to give vadghes away until Ash faced him and impressed with high lvel of skills performed in their duel Restoring back Volkner passion for pokemon and battles.

Yeah, and if anything, the Anime points to the exact opposite of what Famon stated: Look at Lt. Surge, for instance. That guy managed to beat his opponents so badly that Vermillion had already gotten at least fifteen ER requests per month by the time Ash and co. arrived at the Pokémon Center, plus one more by the time Pikachu recovered, and the ER itself is chock-full of victims of Lt. Surge. Had what Famon stated had any accuracy, there wouldn't BE as many ER patients in the Vermillion Pokémon Center precisely BECAUSE his reputation would have trainers try to steer clear of him. Heck, Ash was the first one to actually beat Lt. Surge, apparently, and even HE needed to do so twice due to the first time requiring a visit to the ER on Pikachu's end, making Pikachu the 17th ER recipient in a month.

Who will be facing Misty depends on vicinity of Cerulean gym to someone town or area where trainers are currently finding themselves. Certainly not on how much echo someone name leaves among people.

Yeah, and besides, see the Lt. Surge example above.

Staryu was reputed as one of most used, strongest and with lot of experience Misty pokemon.

Unlike Brock pokemon which got quickly curbstomped against Molly with Onix, Zubat and Vulpix not lasting even minute.

Misty Staryu was not just able to resist whirlpool and bubblebeam combination from Mantine without even being affected. But it was capable of completely neutralizing it with speed of its rapid spinning being completely equal in strength against Mantine when diving down on each other.

If that was ordinary Mantine than yes this wouldnt be impressive, But it was mentioned by Brock in third movie how Molly pokemon were several times stronger than normal real ones with Molly Mantine being at least double stronger than ordinary one. Yet Staryu still managed to hold its ground against it revealing high level of experience.

Yeah, and it's not even made clear if Misty and her Staryu actually lost, either, as Molly teleported to Ash's position just as the battle was heating up without any conclusion whatsoever. For all we know, Molly probably realized she was taking too long to beat Misty and just retreated to make sure Ash couldn't reach Delia.

Also field advantage can work both ways. Butterfree had advantage of flying over Staryu makjing it harder for Misty to hit it effectively with her pokemon attacks.

Part of someone skill , knowledge and wisdom is in making best use of field to your advantage as well. With Misty using water terrain smartly to avoid Butterfree powders and deliver element of surprise making it harder for bug pokemon to predict from where Staryu is going to emerge on surface in attempts of taking him down.
Or we are suddenly going to pretend how Ash creative use of various battle fields such as heating rock terrain immobilizing Gary Blastoise or using ice pillars as means to increase Chimchar agility on ice against Candice was fluke as well not deserving those wins?

Yeah. If Ash's tactics can be counted as actual skill and knowledge, what Misty did was also pretty skilled as well. Heck, for all we know regarding Starmie in particular during the Cerulean match before it was interrupted by Team Rocket, Misty may just order Starmie to get back into the water to recover, then finish off Pidgeotto (it wasn't that far away from the water, so it wouldn't take much effort for it to get back in even in it's low energy state). After all, if Ash's Caterpie can beat Team Rocket despite not only being completely inexperienced compared to Ekans, Koffing, and especially Meowth, but also near-dead, Misty's Starmie is just as capable of doing so against Ash's Pidgeotto.

Regardless of water terrain or not you cannot pull assumptions out of nowhere, because there is nothing to say battle couldnt be won by Staryu without water pool as well. Proving to posess means and techniques required to disperse Butterfree spores and powders such as rapid spin or water gun scattering Weezing smog more than once.

Yeah, agreed. Battles aren't just about hitting the opponent. You also have to make sure to avoid blows, have tactical advantages and exploit them, strategy, and all of that.

Obviously not every person would succeed as trainer lacking courage, determination, fighting spirit and talent to get them somewhere. Hence making difference between talented and subpar trainer.

Brock father proved that by failing both as gym leader and as traveling trainer. Because ever since he took over gym allowing Brock to travel he had very little success with it with Brock mother Lola quickly defeating him and turning gym in circus full of decorations, water pool etc wanting to change it in water based battlefield.

In contrast Brock who traveled with Ash through Kanto and Johto by that point thanks to new unorthodox battle strategies he discovered when seeing Ash and other trainers battle while exploring world was able to defeat Lola at her own game. Making crafty use of Onix by commanding dig to drain field out of water sending it in hole Onix made. Leaving Mantine helpless, less maneuverable and agile leveling out chances in Onix favor netting him win eventually.

Yeah, and besides, Flint even stated Brock had enough skills to actually have a chance at winning the Pokémon Leagues, and considering just how effortlessly he beat Pikachu (something Flint even hinted at earlier when Ash expressed a desire to enter the league and challenge the gym), Flint wasn't exaggerating.

If you never travel just sitting at some facility your completely dependant on other trainers whim and if someone strong will come and battle you. You cannot develop more creative battle strategies at home because your never competing st other strong tournaments, meeting all kind of powerful high class trainers in world who are ahead of you in planning and strategy nor you can truly reach full potential that way.

Limiting yourself greatly leading to nothing but stagnation.

Yeah, it limits you completely, even if there is a short-term gain in strength. You can't be satisfied if you fight rookies alone (and let's face it, whether trainers or Pokémon, she's inevitably going to lose to rookies anyhow if she keeps this up, and doing so multiple times will just cause her to decrease in strength).

By traveling your opening all kind of doors and opportunities to put your knowledge and skills to much higher level.
By meeting all kind of powerful trainers around world drawing valuable experience when battling them. Developing more effective and complex battle style, find themselves in all kind of unexpected situation seeing different usage of pokemon and strategy which they dont encounter at gym, learn more about pokemon types by exploring world obsderving them in nsatural habitat along with entering tournaments with high competition. Facing plethora of powerful trainers and all kind of diverse battle styles and attack combnations you could never encounter at gym.

Yeah, and the fact that one has to travel and beat leagues, which even the games made very clear needs to occur to get stronger, even if not to become a Pokémon Master, to say less about the anime, makes very clear one doesn't become a Master by simply sitting around.

Why else do you think so many gym leaders travel? Candice travels, Fantina leaves gym for months angering other challenges to develop new battle techniques and more unpredictable strategies. Whole point behind Cilan joining Ash is because he realized when Ash defeated him with Oshawott despite Pansage having type advantage how by traveling you can expand on your imagination and out of box thinking. Allowing him to become more innovative and resourceful. This started to show in beating Trip Gurdurr through Crustle combination of shell smash and rockslide dealing more damage than usual. Or using smartly Pansage solar beam to get him out of ice block defeating Abomasnow. Cilan himself mentioned quite a few times how Ash out of box strategies served as inspiration to "spice up" his battles developing more effective strategies.Clemont is for same reason traveling with Ash realizing how only by traveling he can become more brave, poised, confident and complete trainer.

Yeah, those are all shown in the anime. Heck, even in the games, in the case of Fantina, it was strongly implied that travelling is the only way anyone can get stronger. Even if it were true that this isn't the case in the games, that doesn't change the fact that this is indeed the case in the Anime.

By traveling you casn learn how to unlock ancient, hidden power of your pokemon. By mega evolving them which you cannot do at gym.
You can catch all kind of new pokemon unavailable in region where you live making your pokemon roaster more diverse and ready for every situation. Why else would Clair made such a long trip all the way to Unova to catch Druddigon stating herself how there are no such pokemon residing in Johto.

Yeah, and in fact, Clair appearing during the Decolore arc and saying this should make very clear that a Gym Leader cannot improve while they are still a Gym Leader. Heck, Iris in particular even specifically refused to become a Gym Leader in the anime, citing she still needed to become a Dragon Pokémon Master. And she's lucky she doesn't have siblings who otherwise basically forced her into a gym, unlike Misty.

By traveling you can enter all kind of powerful tournaments facing all kind of trainers, unique battling styles and attack combination you would never see as gym leader. Making yourself recognized for your knowledge, abilities and sharp thinking among all kind of powerful trainers around world putting your expertozer to much higher level.
Why else would Viola and Grant use any opportunity they have to battle in Bsttle Chateau tournaments?

Yeah, and that's another bit of evidence how even the games strongly imply that being Gym Leader won't actually have them improve much if at all, and how only travelling will allow them to grow stronger.

Because challengers they face at gym are nowghere near as strong ike those they battle at tournaments asre learning much,. much more that way.

Yeah, they aren't. In fact, Falkner actually lost extremely easily thanks to both Pikachu and Charizard, both veteran Pokémon. The only Pokémon he actually managed to beat was a rookie anyways, Chikorita. Even if the trainers themselves aren't rookies, it's a very high chance that their team at least, barring possibly their starter Pokémon, are rookies. And considering how Paul completely curbstomped the Gym Leaders, some of which with his vets, it's pretty clear that they aren't exactly as good as Famon gives credit for.

Some gym leaders are blessed by having substitutes allowing them to travel without interruptions like Cilan , Clemont or Wallace are when he left gym to JUan. While some dont have someone to fill up for them making only shorter journeys like Roark, Candioce, Fantina etc does. But fact of the matter is how most who can travel knowing how that way they can gain much more knowledge and experience than they ever cpould if they just stayed at gym stagnating.

Agreed, and Fantina basically placed the gym at risk of being shut down as well (she's very lucky the times Ash passed her gym did not occur during a PIA inspection).

Traveling is even more important for those who wants to become something more than gym leader like Misty. Because at gym you wont be able to enter strong, filled with elite trainers competitions, tournaments ike Whirl Cup, develop such sophisticated and diuverse battle techniques reaching E4 level of power,. Learn how to use water specie to msaximum of their abilities going beyond limits like you could by mega evolving them collecting needed stones an d spoending time in wild to reach closer to your pokemon inner self making stronger bond which is vector in commencing whole process etc.

Yeah. And considering how she looks up to Lorelei in both the Anime and even the Games, and made very clear her desire to travel, it's nothing more than confirmed that she does in fact need to travel just to get stronger.

Misty had goal in Kanto as well. Stating several times how she wants to become strongest water trainer in world learning as much as she can about them openly confronting others who wanted to do them harm like Nastina when poluting ocean or attempting to steak her pokemon like that guy with Farfetched . Which was continued to be mentioned in Orange Islands reveaing how Misty has interest in becoming strong like E4 members are heavily idolizing Lorelei and being fascinated by her pliable use of water pokemon.Battling other water trainers like Marina with Golduck.

Yeah, that's definitely further confirmation. Heck, she even tried to capture Pokémon that only tangentially were related to Water-types (like her nearly capturing Oddish). And there are plenty of other instances as well.

Just to be continued in Johto series stating she wants to show whole world how unique and powerful water pokemon are planning to become best water trainer there is winning various challenges like SEaking tournament, Alto Mare and Balloon race, challenged gym leader demonstrating her sleight in underwater battes, facing all kind of trainers. Term water master wasnt used in Kanto, but it started to be used in Johto and if im not mistaken Orange Islands with wruters defining better Misty desire to become best water expert world ever saw showing to mean becoming water pokemon master.

Yes, it was starting to be used, or at least similar phraseology in the case of the Orange Islands. And honestly, only a fool would deny that. Sure, they don't use the phrase, but make no mistake, the common attributes to her goal made very clear she wanted to be a Water Pokémon Master even if she never explicitly mentions this. Actually, at one point in Kanto, she does actually state she was going to be a Water Pokémon Trainer, or at least intended to be that (when remembering the ink message Horsea was making warning them of a certain event in the Tentacool and Tentacruel episode, she says "and I call myself a Water Pokémon Trainer" or something along those lines).

Focus on Misty dreams and expertize about water pokemon started to be present in Kanto, but at that time it wasnt properly defined yet with series being in their craddle with writes just starting out and needing time to find right tune through which they would push things forward. Along with not being experienced in handling out properly protagonist goals like they would become in later sagas.

Yeah, agreed. The writers basically screwed her over late Johto. Not just the eyecandy thing, but also because Shudo favored Team Rocket over her. Misty always seemed to be the game designers' favorite character, or at least they were firmly aware of her intense popularity, as they made sure to actually base Game Misty heavily on her Anime personality (as can be seen with HGSS and FRLG) rather than simply giving her a separate personality for the games (for instance, Brock's breeder goal isn't even hinted at in the games, and in fact, if anything, he's given more of a fossil fascination and aiding in digs at Mt. Moon, something that was never implied in the anime). Then again, they probably gave her the same personality as in the Anime because they regretted removing her from the Anime and figured they'd make it up by making sure that Game Misty resembled Anime Misty as much as possible.

You can only theorize to certain degree. But based on facts i present in opening post there exists tasks and tests you need to pass to earn title of water master which writers showed to us in pokemon series being indisputable.

Yeah, the writers did make the facts very clear. Famon can be as cynical and nihilistic as he wants, but it doesn't change those facts. And for the record, what he's commenting on is precisely why Best Wishes was such a terrible series.

Brock goal was explained multiple times to mean type of trainer who dont battles and train their pokemon for fghts. But learn how to keep them in top shape, groom them, prepare all kind of foods and potions for pokemon raising them and bringing their inner strength on surface in other ways than regular trainers do.

This was displayed several times by Brock learning about new types of food making them ike pokeblocks and pokepuffs. By applying his abilities as care taker and reveal more of his caring and compassionate side when healing pokemon or helping them in overcoming issues. Such as baby Stantler, Sharpedo with who he spent whole night in warming him and healing from poison. Injured Nuzleaf, Solrock who was misjudged by people from village, Shayming from Marlene etc. While apppying wisdom and knowledge about pokemon nature and feelings in helping them to find love partner(in teaching Ash Totodile how to approach Azumarill or to solve issue in feud between angry pokemon like Magnezone and Metagross).Etc.

Yeah, come to think of it, that's actually correct. Never thought about it that way. Though there are some instances where his involvement felt forced (the Pachirisu sick day episode and the time Brock got sick are some notable examples, as with the former, they apparently had Ash completely forget about Pachirisu having a cold despite experience with Pikachu having a cold [twice], who had similar anatomy to Pachirisu, and with the latter, Misty apparently did badly as a cook, and this was despite her not only creating the Stun Spore-itis vaccine for Ash, Tracey, and even Jessie, which required cooking Salveyo Weed, but it was also strongly implied throughout the Viridian Forest arc that she had been the one who did the cooking [which according to Ash, they had been in the Forest for 13 days by the time they arrived in Pewter City. It's clear Ash couldn't have cooked, since his first day was one disaster after another, and thus it's extremely unlikely he could have cooked at all].).

Receiving his very first pkemon egg Happiny putting lot of love and devotion in raising it to powerful Chansey using this beeeder knowledge to full potential.

Agreed, and that's not even counting his raising Togepi as an Egg before Misty got it.

Whole thing about mating between pokemon and producing eggs was doomed to failure. Because its anime aimed primarily at school kids and introducing any sexual implications and what is whole process behind pokemon reproduction would be way too controversial for this anime. Hence why Brock breeding career was explored in different wys.

Funny thing is, aside from the likes of Dragon Ball actually including porno magazines despite the anime being for kids (tweens at most), I know Disney got away with the strong implications that Lady and Tramp in Lady and the Tramp having sex precisely because they were animals and not humans. Heck, isn't Brock's little womanizing gag somewhat inappropriate for audiences as well? Yet they kept that in, and it arguably worsened Brock's character.

Only issue was that he did not receied enough screen time and development as whole with writers mainly focusing his role of bering like mentor and care taker of Ash and others giving advices, looking after them to not get themselves in danger and balancing out clash, tension and differences in personalities between Ash and others with his wisdom, maturity and attainment.

Yeah, even Misty got more screentime on her goal than Brock did.

There is not only implication but actual proof. Whole point of Iris being sent on journey by dragon elder from village is to become dragon master. Develop stronger bond with dragons through journey exploring world, meeting newe kind of pokemon, battling ad learning from other dragon specialists like Drayden, Clair, Cynthia etc drawing valuable experience. Had chance to meet legendary dragon pokemon like Rayquaza or REshiram. Enter variouds tournaments like Don George battle competition or Junipor Cup weighting her strength and resourcefulness against other trainers etc.

Yep, sounds a whole lot like proof to me.

Only those who proved themselves to people from dragon village will be given title of dragon master.Having to prove their worth through battles, understanding better dragon feelings and becoming noticeable for high level of expertize among other strong trainers in world. With Cynthia and Alder recognizing potential in Iris.

Yeah, and let's not forget the more important bit: When Alder offered to make Iris a Gym Leader, she refused, at least for the time being, being more concerned with pursuing her goal of Dragon Pokémon Master than running a gym. If that isn't proof in the anime that becoming Gym Leader =/= becoming a Pokémon Master, I don't know what is.

Same applies to Misty,. She was already accomplished gym leader of Cerulean but she left to travel in order to achieve dream of becoming water pokemon master. Meeting various other water specialists like Marina, Andreas, Dorian or Trinity asessing her resourcefulness, innovation and sttength agaionst them.

Yeah. And that's another thing: Famon, by your logic, Misty wouldn't have even NEEDED to travel outside the gym, never mind go with Ash, if she already had the position of Water Pokémon Master by being a Gym Leader (something she had explicitly stated as early as Episode 7).

She met her idol E4 Lorelei and various other high class trainers like Lance or Bruno. Sw all kind of new water okemon carching them such as Psyduck, Horsea, Poliwag or Corsola bringing more versatility to her team. She entered several competitions including Whirl Cup which no matter how many times you ignore it was portrayed as competition directly tied to Misty water master goal.

Yeah, it was made very clear to be tied to her goals.

With those who want to become water pokemon master needing to enter and win such prestigue tournaments sharping their skills and coming to realization how to use water pokemon in most productive way against opponent both in water and outside of it turnuing disadvantage yoiur water pokemon has against others in advantage.

That's another thing that indicates mastery, as well.

There are no shortcuts innvolved in here. Being required ti travel abd win such big tournaments to acquire watermaster title.

Yes, no shortcuts, just like with Ash's goal or the Pokémon Coordinator goals. Heck, any goal that isn't a Pokémon Gym Leader.

Needless to say your forgetting how Lance who is labelled as legendary dragon masrer constantly travels seeking for new knpwledge and helping stop villains. Cynthia who is one of best, if not best trainer in world(it was implied she might be pokemon master) travels from region to region battling others in tournaments and learning how to improve her batte abilities even more. Lorelei who is labeled as ice master doesnt do sitting at home doing jacksquat but travels, enter tournaments and measure her strength against other challengers discovering more effective and unusual ways of battling finding most optimal techniques and strategy to which your pokemon could adapt.

Yes, agreed. And in fact, compared to the Gym Leaders, Ash can't even touch them.

So yes pokemon anime made it pretty clear how any person which wants to become type master or became type master travels. Since that way you can see world, see new pokemon, compete in strong events gaining more experience than sitting at home and waiting in hopes of strong trainers coming to you.

Yep.

Goldeen battled 4 times in total never being used much by writers. Hence resulting in very little focus and decvelopment. But out of battles it participated in. It lost 3 times and won against James Victrebel. Making it weakest pokemon in Misty team.

Yeah, and even then it still won one battle, so to claim that it only lost its battles is completely inaccurate. Is it the weakest in Misty's team? Sure, but it is NOT as weak as to never win a single battle as that is completely false.

Speaking of Whirl Cup coming top 8 on first try in such prestigue tournament is i dont know about you but definitely impressive feat.
Being stated in preliminary rounds how only most skilled, resourceful and proficient trainers will come in top 64. With lower rounds serving purpose of eliminating weak competition.

Actually, I've been thinking about it, and isn't it more like top 4 that Misty won? Top 8 would be more like quarter-finals, while she clearly lost the semi-finals, with Trinity and the Feraligatr trainer fighting the final round (the latter of whom clearly won). This isn't just from dialogue, but also from the ending ceremony's visuals. Or am I missing something?

As for rest of your argument. "post hoc ergo propter hoc!"
Just because there was element of lucl involved does not mean battle was necessarly won through luck.

Luck is part of every battle but fact of the matter is how Corsola defeated Harrison Quilfish more through skill and better plannimg ahead than so much skill. Outsmarting him by reflecting his water based attacks through mirror coat and using recover to give Crsola edge in stamina and resiliance in that battle. Regardless of Quilfish ending stuck in Corsola horns or not, Misty would have won that match.

Speaking of her battle with Ash if i recall right Poliwhirl completely outclassed Ash Totodile overpowering him with speed and strength of physical attacks. With Ash mistake not meaning so much when taken in account how Misty wanted to use Corsola against Kngler with Psyduck sabotating her match. If anything Misty quick thinking and proper evaluation of disadvantage Psyduck caused to her turning this in her strength by ripping benefits of Psyduck headache was only testament to her intelligence and ability to adapt to any problem finding solution to it.

Yeah, the fact that Misty managed to win DESPITE getting messed up by Psyduck is only a testament to her skill as a trainer. If Ash could get through winning against Team Rocket even when clearly at a disadvantage and be called a skilled trainer for that, or pull similar stunts with various gym leaders and also be called skilled, Misty definitely deserves the same praise. Heck, most of the stuff Ash manages to pull is also luck, yet you aren't bashing him as being weak like Misty, right, Famon?

Which can only skilled trainers do. Fact that she gave Trinity run for her money defeating Gyarados with just one Corsola spoike cannon proves how strong and capable she is not being pushover.

Yeah, that's definitely not a sign of a pushover at all. If anything, that proves she has a lot of potential.

Either way, all we ask is that Misty at least pursues her goal instead of continue to be forced into a Gym. I don't care if it is even with Ash's group or not, as long as Misty at least is allowed to continue her goal. Is that not too much to ask, especially when May, Dawn, Iris, Cilan, heck, even the likes of Tracey are at least allowed to pursue their goals (even complete them in the case of Tracey), and Brock actually did have the opportunity to actually change his goal of his own free will, anyways.

 

[Famon]

Except that anime and games are two completely different medias. There is no any indication that for gym leaders there exist different standards and privileges over becoming champions than its case with other trainers whio have to do hard work and out lot of effort in reaching such position.

You cannot just become champion without passing tests, evaluazion and challenges pkemon league committee throws upon you in order to earn right to be even took in consideration. Which is case with games as well with Wallace not becoming champion as soon as he left gym mposition to Juan. Just like Koga spent three years away from gym befiore becoming E4 in second generation.

There you go using your made-up stuff as Proof !
Tell me , Where its said that Koga spent 3 year away from the Gym before becoming a E4 ???
Steven offer Wallace to be his Successor at the end of Delta Episode in ORAS .
So , Who give you the information that Koga travel for 3 year ?
Its not that he traveled ! It just you think he spent 3 year away from the Gym ! There is no proof of that in the game & anime .

Also , Its right that nobody can become E4 without test or Evaluation !
However , That doesn't involve Traveling .
The League Community can evaluate a Gym-Leader and gave him the chance to challenge the League if he pass the evaluation.
Hack , it even possible for normal trainer to skip traveling and participate in the League by passing ''Pokémon Certification Test!''
Its just as possible as any of your theory !

It does matter, By trying to deny and completely change what canon of anime established before your just generating plotholes mssing up continuity, progression of storyline and anything which defined fictional characters path and their story as whole. Messing up completely series timeline, plots and development which happened before coming of just as bad and highly disrespctful writing.

You cannot simply ignore what writers said and introduced in this anime because that does not change fact how something exists and happened before.

Oh reallyyyy ??
Tell me , Its well establish that there is only One & One Mewtwo .
So WHERE DID THE 2ND MEWTWO CAME FROM ???
Both Mewtwo were canonize in the TV Series .
So Are you going to tell me that Someone else create the another Mewtwo who run away again ?
Tell me , How the Develop ''DP Ash'' suddenly became a Rookie in BW Series ?
Most important of all , How is Ash still 10 when it was well establish that 2 year has pass since he started his Journey ???
My guess , You talk about the Anime more then Watching it Or else You would know Pokemon Anime is Filled with plot-hole and discontinuity !!

Truth is , Director/Writer are willing to ignore anything for their current Storyline even if it involve Ash being inferior to complete Rookie Or losing the League to an Idiot who didn't brought a 6th Pokemon !

Hold it , This things already happened , Isn't it !!

There is no any legitimate evidence to suggest how Misty couldnt have met Gyarados being stuck with him in wild and having to confront her fears when traveling with Ash. Nor there exists anything to suggest how Misty couldnt be capable of earning Gyarados faithfulness while on journey befriending it and teaching attacks like flamethrower.

Your basing this on nothing really, especially when we know for fact how Misty trained her pokemon when she was on road with Ash such as Staryu, Corsola, Poliwhirl etc. Being mentioned how this took place of screen more than once.

If May could receive Blaziken, Dawn Mamoswine or Iris freaking Dragonite when traveling with Ash. Saying how Misty couldn't receive Gyarados while being in Ash company is clear use of double standards.

Oh really , Her sister will let her carry a dangerous Pokemon like Gyarados that could kill her.
Or Misty catching The Pokemon she hate ! Gyarados isn't Psyduck that will let himself self-caught by Misty.
The Main reason Misty tried to deal with it because it belong to Cerulian Gym So she couldn't ignore it.

Thats another assumption out of nowhere., There is no any suggestion or implication in games or anime how challengers gym leaders will battle against will be based on how famous or reputable gym leader is. Volkner is reputable trainer, so is Blaine., Yet they specifically stated how they got tited iof battling weak trainers not bringing them anything on table to be learned from battles with them.

This even caused Volkner to lose interest in battling in general starting to give vadghes away until Ash faced him and impressed with high lvel of skills performed in their duel Restoring back Volkner passion for pokemon and battles.

Not everyone is the dumhead like Original Ash who will challenge any Gym-leader near him.
Most people are Rational So A Rational Trainer will start with weak Gym-Leader instate of challenging the most famous & Powerful Gym-leader.
For example , Sakura head for Violet city gym even though her Hometown had a Gym. Also Gary challenge Viradian Gym after achieving 10 badge .
Remember , Misty tried to stop Ash from challenging Pewter City Gym and The Gymleader Brock himself warn him .
There was a reason they did this !

As for volkner , The whole episode was about him being wrong and their is strong challenger with Electrifying spark waiting for him .
Plus , If he wanted challenge then he could have left the gym .
He just got Bored because he was too Powerful !

Who will be facing Misty depends on vicinity of Cerulean gym to someone town or area where trainers are currently finding themselves. Certainly not on how much echo someone name leaves among people.

Oh , That right ! Ash is the only experience Trainer who goes to other region to challenge other gym-leader.
Their isn't any other experience & Powerful Challenger who goes to Kento to challenge other gym-Leader .
(Sarcasm)

Misty had goal in Kanto as well. Stating several times how she wants to become strongest water trainer in world learning as much as she can about them

She also said She want to be best in Everything !
She also express a desire to be star .
There a lot of thing she said about her goal ! In Jotho , Her goal finally got a Name.

You can only theorize to certain degree. But based on facts i present in opening post there exists tasks and tests you need to pass to earn title of water master which writers showed to us in pokemon series being indisputable.

Ya According to only your theory !
Everyone think their theory is Indisputable.
I'm no different ether .

There is no confirmation that Misty has to win All the Big Water Pokemon Tournament to be a Water Pokemon Master ! That theory is your & yours only .
The True Definition of Water Pokemon Master remain unspecified just as Dragon Pokemon Master or Top Connoisseur .

Also , Clair is dragon Master But she's not Dragon village ! She's from Dragon den !
Furthermore , Why does only People from dragon village has the right to be ''Dragon Master''.
The title of ''Dragon Master'' belong to anyone who loves and Understand .
That Title is not Dragon Village property ! Just because ''Dragon Village'' has some history with dragon doesn't mean they can keep the title to themselves.
Hack , Ash raising the weakest Dragon type Goomy that is confirmed to be a Goodra in the future ! Ash defiantly hold higher right to be a Dragon master over Iris who barely developed Axew .

Brock goal was explained multiple times to mean type of trainer who dont battles and train their pokemon for fghts. But learn how to keep them in top shape, groom them, prepare all kind of foods and potions for pokemon raising them and bringing their inner strength on surface in other ways than regular trainers do.

So tell me , How does someone become Top Breeder ??
We know , Ash has to win the Pokemon league and May/Dawn has to win Grand Festival to reach their goal.
But What does Brock has to do to become a Top Breeder ?? Winning Pokemon Beauty contest.
Unfortunately , There wasn't a single Pokemon Beauty Contest after Jotho for Brock to Compete .
There was only one Beauty Tournament where Brock compete with Susan and lose her to her childhood sweetheart.
I wonder why !

There is not only implication but actual proof. Whole point of Iris being sent on journey by dragon elder from village is to become dragon master.

That's You actual Proof !!!!
Listen , Dragon Elder told Iris to travel Because this Anime needed Iris to travel with Ash as his traveling Companion .
Just like I said before , This Anime make fuzz about traveling because this show need Ash to travel with his friend to promote new region and Pokemon.
If Ash travel with another female character then Iris would have been a Drayden apprentice who often run errand for him.
Later , She might have become the 8th Gym-Leader for ash to battle and she would be much more developed then the actual Iris as the Gym-leader.

Needless to say your forgetting how Lance who is labelled as legendary dragon masrer constantly travels seeking for new knpwledge

And also his Cousin Clair is known as a dragon Pokemon Master who happen to be a Gym-Leader like Drayden .

She met her idol E4 Lorelei and various other high class trainers like Lance or Bruno. Sw all kind of new water okemon carching them such as Psyduck, Horsea, Poliwag or Corsola bringing more versatility to her team. She entered several competitions including Whirl Cup which no matter how many times you ignore it was portrayed as competition directly tied to Misty water master goal.

It seem Your ignoring the fact that Misty can still leave the gym to compete in Tournament such as whirl Cup and Catch unique Pokemon .
Just like Clair appear in Decolore Island to catch a Shiny Druddigon !!!

Staryu was reputed as one of most used, strongest and with lot of experience Misty pokemon.

Unlike Brock pokemon which got quickly curbstomped against Molly with Onix, Zubat and Vulpix not lasting even minute.

Your simply just treating some minor thing like Big Achievement !
Brock was a Punching bag of Original series since he goal had nothing with Battling ! He lost more then anyone in the group in Original series.
So Just because Misty Staryu hold off Molly longer then Brock doesn't mean its a huge Powerhouse .
Just like you , Another Iris-fan can claim Iris to be the best character in Pokemon because she won Don-Tournament and tame a Dragonite which is a very impressive feat and also her Axew hit Cynthia's Garchamp with Giga Impect etc etc .
But This Does not change that Iris & her Axew are Poorly Developed Character.

Just like that Iris-fan , Your doing to the same thing .
Claiming some Normal & predictable tactic as brilliant !
Misty using the water field to wash of Sleep-Power is the most basic and predictable thing any water Pokemon trainer would do .
Now that I think , A more experience trainer like Paul would use this to lure one of Misty Pokemon inside Water so he can zap with Shock wave. Unless Misty filled the Stadium with Pure Water.

Just because Ash himself had experience DOESN'T mean his rookie team was experienced. In fact, I should point out that there was a sports movie, Rebound, that featured a Coach who actually taught the big leagues formerly before he got kicked out for being a jerk. He ended up training a Middle School basketball team in order to make up for his behavior, and he effectively cost them their first game despite his experience largely due to the team being inexperienced (and his actions in "coaching" certainly didn't help either), especially compared to the big leagues. Same deal with Bad News Bears (not just the original, but also the remake). And I already noted Roxanne as being a possible exception alongside Brawley.

First tell me ,
What made you think that all Wild Pokemon are inexperience and low-leveled ???
Because it was shown in various Episode that Wild Pokemon can be far too Powerful to beat .
Example : Bruno's huge Onix .
Even in the game , You can find Wild Pokemon over level 50 .
Its not that they are low-leveled & inexperience! It just that You think they should be low-leveled & Inexperience !
It seem You don't actually watched AG Series at all or else You would know-
The First 3 Hoenn Pokemon Ash caught ''Outclassed'' Pikachu before they were capture .
Tailow keep taking on Electric attack one after another but yet he fought on per with Pikachu , Treeko Outclass Pikachu in Speed and it was Ash's quick thinking that allow him to beat it , Corphise Overpowered Pikachu completely .
Ash may only caught 5 hoenn Pokemon But their were unique and pretty Powerful from the start even among their own kind.
And Since they had a smart & Experience trainer like Ash , There nothing wrong with them beating Gym-leader Pokemon .

And you claim about the Hoenn gym-leader being below to Original Misty , Are you saying that Ash will not have any chance against her if he used his Hoenn Team ?
Only An Native idiotic Fan of Misty would claim something like that .
Because it would take just Corphise to take care of most of Original Misty's Pokemon ! Psyduck is the only Pokemon that pose any thread as long as Ash doesn't attack its head like the Bulbasaur Vs Psyduck battle .
Corphise are naturally Strong Pokemon due to their habit of picking fight ! Then Their is Grovyle and Swallow !
Tell me , Wasn't Misty experienced & Powerhouse Pokemon Staryu gotten its Ass-kicked by Ash's inexperienced Chikorita ?
Furthmore , Ash new Pidgeotto beaten her Starmie . And by the way , I watched the battle so don't try claiming Misty told Starmie go to Water ! Starmie doesn't have Eyes so When they are beaten they become unable to move and their Jewel start beeping ! Plus , Even if it tried to move , It doesn't have enough energy to dough a Quick attack.
Off Course , It said Misty's sister that Misty wouldn't had a chance to win the battle if Pikachu was willing to battle.

As For Misty beating the Weepinbell of the weakest student of Pokemon Tact , What Happened afterward ?
Let see, Misty Startmie got its ass-kicked by a Rock type like Graveler that belong to Giselle , Ash's 1st crush.
Even after falling in the Pool , It wasn't enough to heal Starmie !
As for beating James's Victorybell , The Original Jessie & James got their ass-kicked by everyone ! Including a catterpie and A little boys Eevee .
Ash Hoenn Team Had Pokemon that were pretty strong before they were capture !
Plus , A Trainer ability to use his Pokemon is far important that the Pokemon's experience ! A Real Pokemon Master know how to use any Pokemon against anyone ! It was said during Pokémon Certification Test!

What do you want? This show require Ash to have a team of New Pokemon of current Gen Which is reason behind him leaving his Pokemon in Oak's lad .
The second choice is ''Releasing them'' like Jotho series. would you like that ?
So Basically , You want Ash to nuke every gym with just Pikachu while other new Pokemon just stand in the sideline because you think they should be low-leveled and inexperience !
Do you hear the complain about Pikachu being the star of every gym .
Its an Anime , fans doesn't want your realistic view of battle.
Just create Poll titled --
How should Ash win the Laverre Gym --

--Option 1 : Nuking the gym with Oaked Pokemon
--Option 2 : Finding a way for Goomy to beat Sylveon.

And I'm sure everyone would pick Option 2 because Ash being pushed to corner and finding a way for Goomy to beat Sylveon is far more interesting then nuking her Gym with Oaked Pokemon.

This is my last post regarding the matter ! If all 3 of us start arguing then this thread with become a huge Spam Thread !
I Started this matter & I'm ending it !

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Steven offer Wallace to be his Successor at the end of Delta Episode in ORAS .

If I were you, I wouldn't use ORAS, FRLG, or HGSS in relation to the Anime, because they haven't ever been adapted and thus any plot points they use mean nothing to the Anime.

And even if we are to somehow use the remakes as an example, FRLG had a note in the Safari Zone left by Koga that he intends to train his daughter, implying his fight with Red caused him to decide to go for the Elite 4 and have his daughter act as replacement. After that, he had to spend time training for the Elite 4. Of course, DBZ Fan probably knows better than I do, as the only series I've actually sat through from start to finish is Kanto, while DBZ Fan has in fact sat through the entirety of the show up to this point.

Oh reallyyyy ??
Tell me , Its well establish that there is only One & One Mewtwo .
So WHERE DID THE 2ND MEWTWO CAME FROM ???
Both Mewtwo were canonize in the TV Series .
So Are you going to tell me that Someone else create the another Mewtwo who run away again ?
Tell me , How the Develop ''DP Ash'' suddenly became a Rookie in BW Series ?
Most important of all , How Ash still 10 when it was well establish that 2 year has pass since he started his Journey ???
My guess , You talk about the Anime more then Watching it Or else You would know Pokemon Anime is Filled with plot-hole and discontinuity !!
Truth is , Director/Writer are willing to ignore anything for their current Storyline even if it involve Ash being inferior to complete Rookie Or losing the League to an Idiot who didn't brought a 6th Pokemon !

1. It may have been well established that there was one Mewtwo in the Anime, but I'm not so sure about in the games, especially when Pokémon Ranger had Purple Eyes taking control of Mewtwo despite the fact that it was clearly not the Mewtwo from Kanto, not to mention HGSS basically retconned Red capturing Mewtwo in RGBY/FRLG. Besides, things change anyways. They also said there couldn't be more than one Legendary, yet look what happened. We've even got a Legendary who can technically breed (Manaphy) despite it being stated that Legendaries cannot breed.

2. I'm pretty sure DBZ Fan agrees with you with your complaints about Best Wishes there and in fact implied that this was part of the reason why they are actually giving nods to the Original series now.

3. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but other than that Pichu Bros. short, I don't think it was ever implied that Ash even spent his journey for a year, never mind two (Battle of the Badge doesn't count, as the reference to a year passing since he was in Viridian was added into the Dub). Not to mention Ash was still called 10 years old as early as even AG with some of the eyecatchers.

[/B]Hold it , This things already happened , Isn't it !! Oh really , Her sister will let her carry a dangerous Pokemon like Gyarados that could kill her.
Or Misty catching The Pokemon she hate ! Gyarados isn't Psyduck that will let himself self-caught by Misty.
The Main reason Misty tried to deal with it because it belong to Cerulian Gym So she couldn't ignore it.

There's a little thing called "character development," and they can easily have done this sort of thing WITHOUT the Gym being involved at all. Heck, Misty actually grew to like Psyduck or at least tolerate it. All that needs to be done is have Misty be trapped somewhere and the only means of escape and survival for her and her friends is to conquer her fear of Gyarados. That's a good way to solve it. Heck, May hated Pokémon in her first appearance. By your logic, she shouldn't even be a trainer at all, yet they actually managed to have her get over her hate of Pokémon. If they can do it with May, they most certainly can do the same with Misty and Gyarados if she were on the main series and not running the gym.

Not everyone is the dumhead like Original Ash who will challenge any Gym-leader near him.
Most people are Rational So A Rational Trainer will start with weak Gym-Leader instate of challenging the most famous & Powerful Gym-leader.
For example , Sakura head for Violet city gym even though her Hometown had a Gym. Also Gary challenge Viradian Gym after achieving 10 badge .
Remember , Misty tried to stop Ash from challenging Pewter City Gym and The Gymleader Brock himself warn him .
There was a reason they did this !

Yeah, except going by the fact that Vermillion Gym had 17 ER visits (including Ash) within a single month just from challenging Lt. Surge, there shouldn't have even been as many people challenging Surge as there were (17 in a month is still far too many especially given his reputation) if we were to use your argument.

Oh , That right ! Ash is the only experience Trainer who goes to other region to challenge other gym-leader.
Their isn't any other experience & Powerful Challenger who goes to Kento to challenge other gym-Leader .
(Sarcasm)

I think DBZ knows that, and he also pointed out how Paul ended up handing the GLs their butts with very little effort, even mocking many of them as a result. Also, Ash managed to beat many of the Gym Leaders with few instances of him actually having much effort, yet with Elite 4 members, he consistently loses quickly. I think that should be a pretty big hint that Gym Leaders cannot ever become Pokémon Masters unless they forsake being Gym Leaders.

She also said She want to be best in Everything !
She also express a desire to be star .
There a lot of thing she said about her goal ! In Jotho , Her goal finally got a Name.

I don't recall her ever stating she desired to be a star in Kanto, and I've watched it from beginning to end (probably the closest it might have been was the episode Lights, Camera, Quack-tion, and either way, that still doesn't change the fact that she has consistently gone for stuff directly relating to Water Pokémon. Besides, Ash's goal didn't even get any clear indications of how it was supposed to be done until DP where it explicitly mentioned that he needed to fight the Elite 4 and Champion (we've gotten many indications that he needs to fight the Gym Leaders and participate in leagues, but nothing beyond that, and even that was contradicted by Ash beating the Orange League and still having to continue his journey), yet you're still insisting that's what it always was. And I definitely know she explicitly mentioned being a Water Pokémon Trainer in Tentacool and Tentacruel.

Ya According to only your theory !
Everyone think their theory is Indisputable.
I'm no different ether .

Except his "theory" was actually stated multiple times on the show to be the case, that's the difference. Stop being an utter nihilist.

There is no confirmation that Misty has to win All the Big Water Pokemon Tournament to be a Water Pokemon Master ! That theory is your & yours only .
The True Definition of Water Pokemon Master remain unspecified just as Dragon Pokemon Master or Top Connoisseur .

So what was the point of even bringing up Whirl Cup as being a key step to becoming a Water Pokémon Master, then? If there was no confirmation, they wouldn't have even stated it during the Whirl Cup arc. If Ash beating the Elite 4 and Champ is explicitly stated to at the very least get him closer to become a Pokémon Master in DP if not actually have him attain it and is considered such, then the Whirl Cup stating this is definitely the same confirmation. If we were to use your logic, Ash's goal is also just as unspecified as well, and he's the main protagonist.

So tell me , How does someone become Top Breeder ??
We know , Ash has to win the Pokemon league and May/Dawn has to win Grand Festival to reach their goal.
But What does Brock has to do to become a Top Breeder ?? Winning Pokemon Beauty contest.
Unfortunately , There wasn't a single Pokemon Beauty Contest after Jotho for Brock to Compete .
I wonder why !

It's not just the beauty contests, actually, its improving the Pokémon to be of prime shape and emphasize their strength in ways other than battling. And then there's, you know, actually breeding Pokémon and raising them as eggs onward (and this isn't just in the games, either. Remember Paul's brother? He's a breeder like Brock, and he's got various eggs he's raising).

That's You actual Proof !!!!
Listen , Dragon Elder told Iris to travel Because this Anime needed Iris to travel with Ash as his traveling Companion .

Yeah, and considering she was going to leave the show after BW anyways, they could have had her accept the position, but need to take care of things with Ash first before she leaves, NOT refuse him late in the show and then go off to Hoenn to continue her journey regarding becoming a Dragon Pokémon Master. That destroys your entire argument.

Besides, he also cited Clemont and Bonnie, Cilan (who actually WAS a GL), and even Candice as well (and she actually promised Zoey to go for the leagues, and Zoey isn't even part of Ash's group, so you'd be hard pressed to use the whole "anime needs travel as excuse to travel with Ash" reason for that.).

Just like I said before , This Anime make fuzz about traveling because this show need Ash to travel with his friend to promote new region and Pokemon.
If Ash travel with another female character then Iris would have been a Drayden apprentice who often run errand for him.
Later , She might have become the 8th Gym-Leader for ash to battle and she would be much more developed then the actual Iris as the Gym-leader.

And again, they could have just redid how they removed Misty with Iris, only this time, she actually does become GL of her own free will instead of being forced to resume gym duties by her siblings. But they didn't, and this was DESPITE the fact that the time she refused to undergo becoming a Gym Leader being around the time she is due to leave and be replaced anyways.

And also his Cousin Clair is known as a dragon Pokemon Master who happen to be a Gym-Leader like Drayden .

I don't recall Clair actually being called a Dragon Master in the Anime. And besides, it's pretty clear she's weaker than Lance anyways, so she definitely can't be called a master in either case.

It seem Your ignoring the fact that Misty can still leave the gym to compete in Tournament such as whirl Cup and Catch unique Pokemon .
Just like Clair appear in Decolore Island to catch a Shiny Druddigon !!!

Claire at least doesn't have to worry about any relatives basically making a mess of things at her gym. Misty DOES, however, and considering what happened in the first episodes of Battle Frontier where she DID attempt to rejoin the cast, she has no hope of actually leaving the gym if she doesn't want her sisters to basically give out badges (and in fact, Daisy had to threaten to give out badges to force Misty to return). So, no, she can't leave, not as long as Daisy, Lily, and Violet prove to be completely unreliable. And of course, there's also the fact that the PIA's basically on Cerulean's back, meaning if Misty leaves it unattended, the gym will be shut down (Cerulean Blues made this very clear).

And they probably WOULD have had Misty appear if Best Wishes didn't basically skip the whole Pokémon World Conference aspect which actually could have given Misty proper closure (especially when her final appearance in the series, not counting the 10th anniversary special, strongly implied that she disliked running the gym due to her attempting to delay returning as long as humanly possible).

Your simply just using some minor thing like Big Achievement !
Brock was a Punching bag of Original series since he goal had nothing with Battling ! He lost more then anyone in the group in Original series.
So Just because Misty Staryu hold off Molly longer then Brock doesn't mean its a huge Powerhouse .
Just like you , Another Iris-fan can claim Iris to be the best character in Pokemon because she won Don-Tournament and tame a Dragonite which is a impressive feat and also her Axew hit Cynthia's Garchamp with Giga Impect etc etc .
But This Does not change that Iris & her Axew are Poorly Developed Character.

Maybe Brock was a punching bag for most of the series, but that still doesn't change the fact that Misty actually did hold off an artificial Pokémon that was explicitly stated to be several times as strong as a real Pokémon, which IS an impressive feat whether you like it or not. Besides, Ash did several things that were similar, and I don't see you downplaying him, which had I been using your arguments, I actually WOULD dismiss literally every tactic by literally everyone like you do with Misty.

And besides, just because Brock doesn't focus on battling much doesn't mean he was that weak (even though AG onward loves to depict him as such). Don't forget, he managed to beat Pikachu into submission (and this was the same Pikachu who used a fraction of his power to beat Team Rocket, enough for them to realize it was not an ordinary Pikachu), and even in the rematch, where Pikachu was effectively superpowered thanks to a defunct water mill and Flint, enough to actually give Onix some degree of damage when beforehand his electric attacks couldn't even phase Onix at all), it was still not enough to have Ash actually beat Brock one-on-one. It literally took an extremely lucky break of setting off the fire alarm for Ash to actually come close to beating him, and even then, Ash refused to continue the fight thinking such a win would be cheap (especially when his siblings interfered on Brock's behalf despite Brock telling them not to interfere). Heck, Flint even implied his potential was such that he'd actually challenge and possibly even win the leagues if he so wished (And considering the above, he was probably not exaggerating about that), and in fact, the overall conversation even implied that Brock being Gym Leader actually hampers his potential.

Just like that Iris-fan , Your doing to the same thing .
Claiming some Normal & predictable tactic as brilliant !
Misty using the water field to wash of Sleep-Power is the most basic and predictable thing any water Pokemon trainer would do .
Now that I think , A more experience trainer like Paul would use this to lure one of Misty Pokemon inside Water so he can zap with Shock wave. Unless Misty filled the Stadium with Pure Water.

By your logic, basically ANY strategy used in the show by any of the characters, yes, even Paul and especially Ash, is simply a "normal & predictable tactic."

And BTW, Paul couldn't even beat Brandon, so what does that make him? And Ash actually managed to beat him with Pikachu with little effort, and this was despite his using a Regice, which, recent addition to his team or not, is still a Legendary Pokémon and thus extremely difficult to beat. What makes you think he might beat Misty, especially when she actually did fight toe-to-toe with Ash.

First tell me ,
What made you think that all Wild Pokemon are inexperience and low-leveled ???
Because it was shown in various Episode that Wild Pokemon can be far too Powerful to beat .
Example : Bruno's huge Onix .
Even in the game , You can find Wild Pokemon over level 50 .
Its not that they are low-leveled & inexperience! It just that You think they should be low-leveled & Inexperience !
It seem You don't actually watched AG Series at all or else You would know-
The First 3 Hoenn Pokemon Ash caught ''Outclassed'' Pikachu before they were capture .
Tailow keep taking on Electric attack one after another but yet he fought on per with Pikachu , Treeko Outclass Pikachu in Speed and it was Ash's quick thinking that allow him to beat it , Corphise Overpowered Pikachu completely .
Ash may only caught 5 hoenn Pokemon But their were unique and pretty Powerful from the start even among their own kind.
And Since they had a smart & Experience trainer like Ash , There nothing wrong with them beating Gym-leader Pokemon .

Yeah, and Charizard was also Ash's strongest Pokémon barring Pikachu, yet in Johto, it apparently didn't even know how to actually fly in its leaving episode, at least not in terms of conscious efforts. Your point? And for the record, what they do in the wild is not the same thing as what they have to do under a trainer. Besides, need I really remind you of what happened in Ash Catches a Pokémon? Caterpie basically handed Team Rocket their butts, despite clearly being at a disadvantage. What the Hoenn team did is no different. Even Lizardo complained about the series' depictions of the Hoenn GLs, and unlike me, he's actually watched it. Take it up with him, if not here, then at least via PM.

And you claim about the Hoenn gym-leader being below to Original Misty , Are you saying that Ash will not have any chance against her if he used his Hoenn Team ?
Only An Native idiotic Fan of Misty would claim something like that .

I'm pretty sure his Hoenn team can't even hold a candle to the other Kanto Gym Leaders, not just Misty. And they most certainly wouldn't be able to handle the stuff Ash's Kanto team were able to handle (case in point, Ash's Hoenn team wasn't able to beat Brandon at all, while Ash's Kanto Team actually did manage to beat Brandon, even if just barely). And BTW, even if I weren't a Misty fan, heck, even if I actually HATED Misty with all my guts, I STILL would have said this, so don't think this has anything to do with my loyalty to Misty. And for the record, they were still rookies, as training under a trainer is a far different ball game compared to what they do in the wild.

Because it would take just Corphise to take care of most of Original Misty's Pokemon ! Psyduck is the only Pokemon that pose any thread as long as Ash doesn't attack its head like the Bulbasaur Vs Psyduck battle .
Corphise are naturally Strong Pokemon due to their habit of picking fight ! Then Their is Grovyle and Swallow !
Tell me , Wasn't Misty experienced & Powerhouse Pokemon Staryu gotten its Ass-kicked by Ash's inexperienced Chikorita ?
Furthmore , Ash new Pidgeotto beaten her Starmie . And by the way , I watched the battle so don't try claiming Misty told Starmie go to Water ! Starmie doesn't have Eyes so When they are beaten they become unable to move and their Jewel start beeping ! Plus , Even if it tried to move , It doesn't have enough energy to dough a Quick attack.
Off Course , It said Misty's sister that Misty wouldn't had a chance to win the battle if Pikachu was willing to battle.

Actually, Staryu actually nearly beat Chikorita. Chikorita just barely managed to dig its feet into the ground. Chikorita actually simply survived due to luck.

And Starmie was probably only barely more experienced than Ash's Pidgeotto, and besides which, no, Pidgeotto did NOT beat Starmie (the battle was interrupted, remember? That doesn't qualify as a win or a loss.). And let me remind you that Staryu managed to fire at Butterfree with Water Gun with Butterfree just barely dodging before landing a hit, so lack of eyes means absolutely nothing. And do I really need to point out that Brock's Zubat was pretty good at fighting DESPITE lacking eyes? And let me also point out that Ash's Caterpie was in the exact same situation in Ash Catches a Pokémon when faced off against Team Rocket, yet it mowed through them, despite the fact he was very likely to be too injured to even attempt to move very quickly or hit very far, and they had also proven themselves to be strong enough to actually BEAT the Pidgeotto that resulted in its condition in the first place. If he could pull that off DESPITE that, Misty's Starmie is more than likely to pull it off. Besides, who said it needs to move that quickly? It was pretty close to the edge of the pool, and its core hasn't been damaged anyways. It wouldn't even need to run very fast to get into the pool or use quick attack (that being said, it does need to move quick enough to evade Pidgeotto).

And anyways, Pikachu's an electric type, so of course Misty probably won't stand a chance. That being said, that doesn't mean that it would be inevitable that Misty would lose. After all, Team Rocket thought Ash's Caterpie didn't stand a chance against them (not an unreasonable assumption, since they had him outnumbered 2 to 1, their Ekans and Koffing had at least a year's worth of experience [based on what they said in Island of the Giant Pokémon], they had already beaten Pidgeotto, which, BTW was largely responsible for its wounded state, and more importantly, they were more fresh compared to Caterpie, not to mention they were both Poison Types, which actually were a type advantage over Bug Types), and look what happened.

As For Misty beating the Weepinbell of the weakest student of Pokemon Tact , What Happened afterward ?
Let see, Misty Startmie got its ass-kicked by a Rock type like Graveler that belong to Giselle , Ash's 1st crush.
Even after falling in the Pool , It wasn't enough to heal Starmie !
As for beating James's Victorybell , The Original Jessie & James got their ass-kicked by everyone ! Including a catterpie and A little boys Eevee .
Ash Hoenn Team Had Pokemon that were pretty strong before they were capture !
Plus , A Trainer ability to use his Pokemon is far important that the Pokemon's experience ! A Real Pokemon Master know how to use any Pokemon against anyone ! It was said during Pokémon Certification Test!

First of all, healing by water won't matter if its core is crushed (which is what happened as Graveler landed a direct hit on Starmie's core and shattered it). And if Staryu can recover by heading into the pool, Starmie, its evolved form, most certainly can (in fact, that's exactly what happened in Bye Bye Butterfree: After James hit it with a sledgehammer to weaken it, Misty sprayed it with a portable water cannon, and it was instantly returned back to health). And keep in mind, Giselle was one of the top students, which means she was plenty strong (remember, people at something like Pokémon Tech operate under slightly different rules, as they just need to advance via grades to become stronger, and even that is implied to be slightly inferior to actually traveling). And for the record, the fact that she beat the kid's Weepinbell was despite her being at a type disadvantage, which still shows her strength regardless. And the fact that Misty could use Ash's Pikachu, Bulbasaur, and Brock's Vulpix during the Princess Competition and actually win proves she at least has the makings of a true Pokémon Master, so I don't see how that Pokemon Certification Test detracts from her anyhow. Also, before Ash Catches a Pokémon, Team Rocket also were shown to be dangerous enough to have a wanted poster placed at the Police Station in their debut episode, so its not like they were utterly pathetic (though they certainly gained that reputation, ironically due to the loss against Caterpie). And that kid's Eevee was most likely trained by him for much longer than Ash trained Caterpie during that point (remember, the only reason Mikey abandoned the Eevee is because he wasn't willing to evolve it and he was put in a position where he was effectively forced by his brothers to choose. It was never stated that he recently caught it and in fact it was strongly implied to be one of Mikey's best friends.). Not to mention Team Rocket actually had managed to become pretty strong a few times (like in Battle of the Badge where they actually gave Ash a run for his money).

What do you want? This show require Ash to have a team of New Pokemon of current Gen Which is reason behind him leaving his Pokemon in Oak's lad .
The second choice is ''Releasing them'' like Jotho series. would you like that ?
So Basically , You want Ash to nuke every gym with just Pikachu while other new Pokemon just stand in the sideline because you think they should be low-leveled and inexperience !
Do you hear the complain about Pikachu being the star of every gym .
Its an Anime , fans doesn't want your realistic view of battle.
Just create Poll titled --
How should Ash win the Laverre Gym --

Maybe you've forgotten, but in DP, several of Ash's new Pokémon weren't exactly slouches, yet even THEY couldn't exactly handle the Sinnoh Gym Leaders on the first try. His Johto team weren't slouches, either, I should point out, and even his Kanto team weren't slouches, yet they had difficulty against several of the GLs. So yeah, having them beat the Hoenn GLs on the first try was not a good idea, something even Lizardo specifically stated was one of his complaints about AG. Also, Ash never "released" his Pokémon at all in Johto. Bulbasaur is still accessible from Professor Oak's place, and Charizard and Squirtle can still be called in by Lisa and Officer Jenny, respectively (and in the case of Charizard, it's actually at Oak's right now, so that only leaves Squirtle who is on loan). The only Pokémon he's truly released are Lapras, Pidgeot, Butterfree, Primeape, and technically Haunter (since the Sabrina rematch episode strongly implied that he actually owned it).

--Option 1 : Nuking the gym with Oaked Pokemon
--Option 2 : Finding a way for Goomy to beat Sylveon.

And I'm sure everyone would pick Option 2 because Ash being pushed to corner and finding a way for Goomy to beat Sylveon is far more interesting then nuking her Gym with Oaked Pokemon.

Option 2 would still need Ash to lose at least once or at least see the GL's potential. Personally, I prefer the Lt. Surge route if they do Option 2. And if not that, I'm willing to go for Option 1.

This is my last post regarding the matter ! If all 3 of us start arguing then this thread with become a huge Spam Thread !
I Started this matter & I'm ending it !

Fine, don't come back. And for the record, most of what you said is actually wrong. I even cited specific evidences showing you are wrong. As did DBZ Fan. Heck, even Lizardo stated she was not weak during her time on the main cast at all.

 

[DBZ fan]

Just noticed i received reply:

There you go using your made-up stuff as Proof !
Tell me , Where its said that Koga spent 3 year away from the Gym before becoming a E4 ???
Steven offer Wallace to be his Successor at the end of Delta Episode in ORAS .
So , Who give you the information that Koga travel for 3 year ?

Koga left his post as gym leader in pokemon Red, Blue and Yellow enthrusting that role to his daughter Janine.

After leaving gym and being promoted to E4 member 3 years passed with all gym leaders, E4 members, champions etc, being three years older. With Koga during that time not being anymore in charge of gym advancing in ranks of Kanto and Johto league, Since Koga wasnt in charge of Fuschia gym for full 3 years according to games , yet he wasnt still E4 member either. Logic says he traveled, went on special training and developed new techniques before he could end up accepted as suitable for such position in second generation.

If something is obvious as day,you do not need play with verb words in game to lead player to conclusion what Koga did during transition period while not being at gym anymore.

Further proof to promotion to E4 membership not happening without traveling to sharp your proficiency and overcoming tasks to even earn right for this posotion was showed through Caitlin. Who after leaving position of Castel Valet Darach traveled through region to further develop her trainer skills, innovation and resourcefulness before she could become strong enough to go on E4 challenge.

Fact that even trainer from Brain Frontier facilities which are in reputation and expertize on much higher level than gyms needed to go on travels to improve before standing chance to become E4, serves as very good proof how Kpga had no free pass either.

Having to rigorously train, travel and pass tests in period before he became E4. Which as we know wasnt at gym since his daughter was in charge of it at that time.

Also , Its right that nobody can become E4 without test or Evaluation !
However , That doesn't involve Traveling .
The League Community can evaluate a Gym-Leader and gave him the chance to challenge the League if he pass the evaluation.
Hack , it even possible for normal trainer to skip traveling and participate in the League by passing ''Pokémon Certification Test!''
Its just as possible as any of your theory !

One does not exclude other. Just because someone is filling up as gym leader does not mean he reached level of expertize and strength required to be on pair with E4 member as gym leader.

As evidenced in anime even E4 members can be temporarily gym leaders like Agatha was acting as substitute until Viridian gym leader gets appointed. But does that mean she reached thar level by staying at one place? No, not really.

Agatha reached such level of power, reputation, perception and complexity in her battle techniques by traveling, seeing world, discovering all kind of new pokemon, entering tournaments with high competition where she could showcase her skills and prove her prowess to other powerful trainers. Along with meeting, battling and learning from other specialists who were succesful before bher time of reign came.

Gym can only get you so far with key for further improvement lying in leaving it to learn new things and improve as trainer outside of it.

Its same like with real life and education for example.
Once you finish high school learning everything you could there only way for enriching on your knowledge and going higher lies in moving on to higher step like college, later signing in PHD program etc in order to evolve. In sport like soccer once you learn everything you can in local league and club you originated from way for ranking up as player, developing your skill and talent to higher level of play only way to do so lies in transferring to higher league(in soccer terms A league) going on better, more prestigue clubs which participate in more intense competiotions, assess their reputation and strength vs pther European clubs of high quality like Champion league etc allowing player to evolve his play and knowledge on much higher level.

There is no other way around.

Its common sense. In "Around the Whirlpool" Misty dreams of becoming water master, than conviniently prof. Elm informs them how there exists Whirl Cup explaining how winner becomes "Alpha omega"(beggining and end to water pokemon). Something Misty eagerly accepts subscribing still fantasizing about becoming master of water pokemon.
Just to hear more about this in "Dueling Heroes"when sea priest Maya talks about water pokemon expert, "sea heroes" (Japanese water masters)which knew ins and outs of water types with title winner obtains in Whirl Cup being convoluted form of water pokemon master , one of steps they in past obtained before fulfilling this dream.
Whirl Cup was directly connected with Misty water master career since it dug deeper into that mentioning whole water master thing and expertize about water types previous water experts used to have.
While admittedly whole procedure was vague , it also had connections with Misty dream.

Oh reallyyyy ??
Tell me , Its well establish that there is only One & One Mewtwo .
So WHERE DID THE 2ND MEWTWO CAME FROM ???
Both Mewtwo were canonize in the TV Series .
So Are you going to tell me that Someone else create the another Mewtwo who run away again ?
Tell me , How the Develop ''DP Ash'' suddenly became a Rookie in BW Series ?
Most important of all , How is Ash still 10 when it was well establish that 2 year has pass since he started his Journey ???
My guess , You talk about the Anime more then Watching it Or else You would know Pokemon Anime is Filled with plot-hole and discontinuity !!

Truth is , Director/Writer are willing to ignore anything for their current Storyline even if it involve Ash being inferior to complete Rookie Or losing the League to an Idiot who didn't brought a 6th Pokemon !

Two wrongs do not make something right. Constantly playing with what was established as canon in series changing it like caprice child randomly and depending on mood only defeats pobnt which anime tried to accomplish within storyline you as writer introduced in first place. Destroying plot, dropping in water accumulated knowledge and experience with show starting to look like joke, with no importance or identity.

Reflecting on popularity, reputation and people interest negatively.

Because basis for good storyline is consistency, balanced storyline and continuity.

Changing continuously this things would only further damage show filling it with plotholes existing on every step.

Needless to say until writers contradict what they established as canon in previous sagas through something else. Rewriting completely what they established about someone dream and way to achieve it before. Something which in Misty case regardng water master career was presented as prestigious title requiring traveling, winning tournaments like Whirl Cup is and reaching E4 level of strength.

With introduction of Iris and her progression toward title of dragon master once again only reinforcing on fact how traveling in Misty case to become water master is indeed required.

As long writers dont cancel out actions of past series through new plots rewriting history, events of previous sagas are ultimate and indisputable 100% canon.

Hold it , This things already happened , Isn't it !! Oh really , Her sister will let her carry a dangerous Pokemon like Gyarados that could kill her.
Or Misty catching The Pokemon she hate ! Gyarados isn't Psyduck that will let himself self-caught by Misty.
The Main reason Misty tried to deal with it because it belong to Cerulian Gym So she couldn't ignore it.

Just like writers set up situation at gym which left Misty with no choice but to directly face her fears in repairing damage Gyarados left on her psyche before.

They would had just as easily write storyline for Misty to end up confronting Gyarados in wild while traveling with Ash. Either by being separated from Ash and co ending lost in forest near lake with Gyarados attacking her. Forcing Misty to find way out of dangerous situation calming it down and earning its confidence.

Or having to help other people from Gyarados with no one else being there to save their lives. Forcing Misty to think of quick and creative solutions in drawing Gyarados attention away and dropping in water near him reviving on childhood memories and struggling in trying to face them when urgent situation calls for it.
I could list scenarios whole day.

Circumstances under which Misty would catch Gyarados and gain its love and respect would be different, but there is no denying how Misty could had receive just as great, if not even more meaningful development from confronting Gyarados by herself when traveling with Ash as well.

Just like Ash had to work on earning Charizard support, Dawn with Mamoswine, Iris for Dragonite etc.

Power of plot dictates what will happen and writers could had create all kind of situations in which Misty development regarding Gyarasdos would had happened regardless of traveling, being at gym or somewhere else.

Trying to deny this is very narrowminded way of looking at this things from writer perspective, especially when whole issue of putting Misty in situation at Cerulean where she had no choice but to confront Gyarados was chain of invented plotlines leading to such moment.

Not everyone is the dumhead like Original Ash who will challenge any Gym-leader near him.
Most people are Rational So A Rational Trainer will start with weak Gym-Leader instate of challenging the most famous & Powerful Gym-leader.
For example , Sakura head for Violet city gym even though her Hometown had a Gym. Also Gary challenge Viradian Gym after achieving 10 badge .
Remember , Misty tried to stop Ash from challenging Pewter City Gym and The Gymleader Brock himself warn him .
There was a reason they did this !

Except your forgetting fact how Sakura collected gym badges randomly for something entirely different than qualifying for league first competing against Falkner and Bugsy to win Zephyr and Hive badge. Skipping Whitney and Morty facing Chuck of Cianwood for storm badge.

Just to suddenly stop traveling through Johto going to Kanto starting to challenge gym leaders there with Misty being in neighbourhood as closest next gym for her to challenge.

Since we do not know for what Sakura tried to qualify by jumping from callenging gym leaders in one region to another, your argument is invalid.

Also sole reason why Misty warn him not to challenge Pewter gym was because:
-Ash was cocky braggart who had zero training involved with his pokemon underestimating everyone,
-because against rock, ground type pokemon he only had Pikachu, Butterfree and Pidgeotto. With all 3 being highly vulnerable and at disadvantage against pokemon type Brock used.

With Misty even offering her water pokemon knowing Ash would otherwise stand no chance with current skills and preparation. Brock status and fame had nothing to do with Ash being suggested not to challenge him. Main reason was because Ash didnt prepared himself and had no pokemon of any efficiency for that type of match.

Yes not all gym leaders are equally strong, but at end of the day against rookie and beginner most of them wont be using best pokemon or using full strength to give challenger chance to win badge. Since their main job is to evaluate trainers to determine if theyre ready to go for league or not.

With most challenegrs gym leader face being of weaker calliber , than its case with trainers you can face in big tournaments, in specific challenging facilities like Battle Frontier was or by traveling across world meeting much higher variety of trainers that way. Rather than hoping veteran would pick your gym coming for challenge.

Especially when it has been established in anime how there exists more than 8 badges per region. With Gary having 7 different badges from Ash when battling Kanto gym leaders, Otoshi having 4 badges which does not exist in games in Kanto. Same applies to trainer at Indigo league having 8 completely different badges than Ash coming from Kanto. Indicating Kanto has at least 27 gyms.

In Hoenn Morison had badge nonexistant in games in Hoenn.
In Sinnoh Nando and Barry had 4 badges not corresponding to any known badge you can acquire in Sinnoh games,still being from that region. Indicating at least 12 official gyms existing in DP.

Same applies to Unova where based on unindentified gym badges Trip and Cameron collected by traveing through BW proving how at least 14 gyms exists in that region.

As its made pretty clear. Fact how each region has more than 8 gyms where trainers can battle for badges in hopes of entering regional league, with such wide number of gyms chances of gym leaders receiving large influx of veteran and strong challenges to battle is much, much smaller compared to number of rookies and mediocre trainers you face on daily basis. Being very possible for your gym to end up skipped in favor of some other based on how close trainer is to certain town and gym leader.

As for volkner , The whole episode was about him being wrong and their is strong challenger with Electrifying spark waiting for him .
Plus , If he wanted challenge then he could have left the gym .
He just got Bored because he was too Powerful !

Who says how Volkner was in position of leaving gym? In case you dont have relative or appropriate substitute, you cannot leave gym for indefinite period of time or permanently unless there exists person qualified enough to take your duties.

Its not just Volkner, others like Blaine too revealed how long stays at gym dont allow you to learn much starting to stagnate due to majoity of challengers being trainers of weaker calliber.

Hence why any gym leader which wanted or wants to improve skills, develop more sophisticated ways of countering opponent attacks and overcoming weakness of your pokemon goes on journey. To enter various competitions, learn about new pokemon species, search for stronger trainers and witnessing to use of strategy and move combinastions they never had chance to see before.

Because if sitting at gym and battling challengers gives enough experience, knowledge and strong trainers to reach higher level as trainer. Than why Viola leave gym on every opportunity to improve skills? Or Grant?

Why Candice travels? Wallace travels? Cilan travels? Clemont?

Why Fantina is absent for months with explanation of developing new battle style and more effective strategies if she could do that at gym?
Answer is she cannot, thats why she is on journey so often.

Moreso even in games its strongly revealed how in order to advance as trainer with gym not teaching you enough was showcased through gym leaders like Misty in second generation. Which specifically stated how she is going to leave gym and travel to strength her abilities as trainer battling stronger people. Just to get firther comformation in BW2 games where Misty was traveling trainer by time she competed in World Cup dreaming of meeting and battling all kind of high ranked, reputable pokemon experts furthering her knowledge and skills.

Oh , That right ! Ash is the only experience Trainer who goes to other region to challenge other gym-leader.
Their isn't any other experience & Powerful Challenger who goes to Kento to challenge other gym-Leader .
(Sarcasm)

I didnt say there isnt any, so please refrain from presenting something i never carried out.
But when multiplied with number of gyms existing per each region as explained in analysis before, number of trainers willing to enter league(because not every strong trainer will challenge Indigo league or pursue same goal Ash does) and how many of stronger trainers each gym leader would battle against depending on area of region they travel through and which gym leders are on their way or not.

Displays how only minority of challengers gym leaders receive are skilled, ace class of trainers. So called veterans, with majority when looking at percentage of challengers gym leader face on daily basis being made of beginners, low tier and mediocre type of trainers.
Since thats highest number of tainers existing in pokemon world. Hence why any gym leader which wants to rank up, exceed his curent knowledge and battle expertize traves in search for stronger trainers, entering tough competition in various tournaments etc,. As anime made it pretty clear with large number of them, but games as well.

She also said She want to be best in Everything !
She also express a desire to be star .
There a lot of thing she said about her goal ! In Jotho , Her goal finally got a Name.

True of a part doesnt make something true as a whole.
You should know that by now.

You can have more than one dream wanting to achieve. Take for example Nando who both wanted to become champion and top coordinator.

Even when it was revealed how Misty ambition of becoming strongest water trainer in world turned out to mean becoming water master. She still didnt stopped having side dreams such as meeting and catching mysterious legendary water pokemon understanding its origins. She didnt stopped dreaming of catching Tentacruel or going to France visiting Paris.

Hoever her main dream was and always had been becoming water pokemon master/top water trainer in world learning as much as she can about them being one of main things defining character.

Ya According to only your theory !
Everyone think their theory is Indisputable.
I'm no different ether .

Whirl Cup revealing through lore more of what water master means to be. Fascination about E4 Lorelei wanting to reach her level of fame and craftmanship. Not being possible to become water master without traveling are all clear, cut out facts demonstrately showed in pokemon series both through Misty and Iris character.

There is diference between canon and fans headcanon tailoring main character dreams to their own according.

There is no confirmation that Misty has to win All the Big Water Pokemon Tournament to be a Water Pokemon Master ! That theory is your & yours only .
The True Definition of Water Pokemon Master remain unspecified just as Dragon Pokemon Master or Top Connoisseur .

Let see:
In "Around the Whirlpool" Misty dreams of becoming water master, than conviniently prof. Elm informs them how there exists Whirl Cup explaining how winner becomes "Alpha omega"(beggining and end to water pokemon). Something Misty eagerly accepts subscribing still fantasizing about becoming master of water pokemon.

Just to hear more about this in "Dueling Heroes"when sea priest Maya talks about water pokemon expert, "sea heroes" (Japanese water masters)which knew ins and outs of water types with title winner obtains in Whirl Cup being convoluted form of water pokemon master , one of steps they in past obtained before fulfilling this dream.

Whirl Cup was directly connected with Misty water master career since it dug deeper into that mentioning whole water master thing and expertize about water types previous water experts used to have.

While admittedly whole procedure was vague and left details unexplained this event probed how winning big water tournaments is mandatory to earn water master title.

Also definitions of dragon and water masters were already given, only procedure and tasks required to be fulfilled to warrant such title hasnt been cleared out and properly defined.
Dragon master career involves to learn how to understand "hearts of dragon pokemon" and raising into strong battlers with title being given by elders from village.

Water master goal was stated to envelop becoming stongest water trainer in world. Judging by Misty worshipping E4 Lorelei wanting to reach such power creep one day implied to mean becoming E4(given they are titled as type masters in games).

Also , Clair is dragon Master But she's not Dragon village ! She's from Dragon den !F

Clair isn't dragon master. She likes to think of herself as "best dragon master in world" according to games,. But she always lose to Lance who is officially labelled as dragon master with his grandfather being elder of famous clan of dragon master.

In anime Clair was never, but absolutely never titled as dragon master either, even when hearing from Iris how she wants to become dragon master. While Lance on other hand was labelled as legendary master of dragon types.

We heard Ash referring to himself as "most skilled trainer there ever was", but just because someone likes to showcase himself in better light infront of others doesn't make something reality.

Furthermore , Why does only People from dragon village has the right to be ''Dragon Master''.
The title of ''Dragon Master'' belong to anyone who loves and Understand .
That Title is not Dragon Village property ! Just because ''Dragon Village'' has some history with dragon doesn't mean they can keep the title to themselves.
Hack , Ash raising the weakest Dragon type Goomy that is confirmed to be a Goodra in the future ! Ash defiantly hold higher right to be a Dragon master over Iris who barely developed Axew .

Because according to anime canon dragon master title is given by elders from dragon village to any trainer specializing in dragon pokemon who learned how to reach to hearts and inner feelings of them to the point of sensing their pain, damage they receive in battle and deepest fears. Functioning like one mind when batling together and having highly advanced skills in utilizing this specie in most productive way.

Whole procedure and possible tasks and evaluatons to reach dragon marer totle was unpolished leaving several questions unanswered. But what is known is how this title is assigned from people in dragon village.

So tell me , How does someone become Top Breeder ??
We know , Ash has to win the Pokemon league and May/Dawn has to win Grand Festival to reach their goal.
But What does Brock has to do to become a Top Breeder ?? Winning Pokemon Beauty contest.
Unfortunately , There wasn't a single Pokemon Beauty Contest after Jotho for Brock to Compete .
There was only one Beauty Tournament where Brock compete with Susan and lose her to her childhood sweetheart.
I wonder why !

Im not sure what correlation Brock career of becoming top breeder has to do with type master careers.

But it was already explained in prevous messages how from any great breeder in world its expected that he knows how to prepare nutritients, food and all kind of diverse potions for pokemon. Groom them, take care of pokemon with lot of love and caree raised to be in top shape. Healthy, satisfied and unlocking their inner strength and qualities through other completely different mehods which has nothing to do with battling and learning attacks.
With top breeders being best among best ones as far as raising pokemon and reaching best possible physical condition in speed, agility, resistance, goes along with condition of furr or skin. Reflecting if pokemon is taken care of in great or poor manner.

It is also obvious why Brock career of becoming top breeder had limitations in how much it can be explored and developed due to passive nature not involving action. And its controversy for kids oriented anime.

Listen , Dragon Elder told Iris to travel Because this Anime needed Iris to travel with Ash as his traveling Companion .
Just like I said before , This Anime make fuzz about traveling because this show need Ash to travel with his friend to promote new region and Pokemon.
If Ash travel with another female character then Iris would have been a Drayden apprentice who often run errand for him.
Later , She might have become the 8th Gym-Leader for ash to battle and she would be much more developed then the actual Iris as the Gym-leader.

That logic is very weak. Because regardless of Iris joining Ash on travels or not, she would have still been sent on journey according to her story. With Elder giving her Axew and saying how traveling will be of invaluable experience for her on road of becoming dragon master.

Not to mention if "gym leader position instantly makes you dragon master", Iris would have accepted Drayden offer instead of choosing to continue traveling. Knowing she can learn much more about dragon pokemon, see new types of their specie, legendary dragpns such as Rayquaza. Meeting and battling strong dragon trainers like Clair alongside entering tournaments and encountering all kind of diverse techniques and creative battle styles improving her own expertize tht way,

More than she could ever hope for if she became gym leader rarely, if ever having time and opportunity to leave and travel . Especially for long time period with obligations and duty holding her back.

Needless to say if your going to shift burden of traveling on part of anime propaganda to justify Ash long travels across the regions.

You might want to reconsider your wording because games promote exact same thing with pokemon animer only promoting importance of traveling gamefreak established in first place regarding exploring world, discovering new species of pokemon, people and making huge improvements in trainer scene becoming famous .

As noticed with NPC characters such as: Misty who in HGSS and BW2 wants to lave gym in games and travel to improve as trainer. Where Caitlin went on journey leaving her reputable position in Battle Frontier she holds in Platinum to learn new techniques and becomer stronger in order to end up promoted to E4 position in BW2 games.
Where Koga before he would be accepted to join E4 left Fuschia gym to daughter Janine with 3 full years passing after he stopped being gym leader and becoming E4 likely training and traveling. He certainly didnt ate candies fooling around in between. Etc, etc.

And also his Cousin Clair is known as a dragon Pokemon Master who happen to be a Gym-Leader like Drayden .

Clair isn't dragon master and Drayden didn't became dragon master by simply taking position of Opelucid city gym leader. Not beng known what requirements, tests, competitions he needed to overcome and prove himsekf to be given title of dragon master in first place. He is highly tied to elders from dragon village often visiting them and being in contact with matriarh of dragon village who sent Iris on journey to become dragon master in first place.

Your mixing apples wth oranges in here. Because gym leader and type master are two separate entities being completely independent from each other. Otherwise every gym leader would be type master, but that clearly is not the case. Far from it.

On other hand every E4 member is type master. What does this tell us?

It seem Your ignoring the fact that Misty can still leave the gym to compete in Tournament such as whirl Cup and Catch unique Pokemon .
Just like Clair appear in Decolore Island to catch a Shiny Druddigon !!!

Some gym leaders are more privileged than others. Those who have someone to fill in for them or are able to find substitute to travel for indefinite period of time can leave on long journeys, catching new pokemon, searching for stzronger trainers and entering tournaments.
While some are tied down to gym not having much choice but to stay there.

Either way at end of the day for Misty in order to become water pokemon master short trips like Clair did are not sufficient nor provide enough time to compete in tournaments. Travel to distant regions, learning how to use water pokemon to full potential through mega evolution and meetng other prestigious water experts like Lorelei, Wallace Siebold etc teaching her secrets about water pokemon and how to achieve perfect synchronization with them.

With only long trips which Cilan, Wallace, Brock, Clemont etc are able to make giving enough time and space to progress on substantial level without being limited in your movements and where and for how long you can go.

Your simply just treating some minor thing like Big Achievement !
Brock was a Punching bag of Original series since he goal had nothing with Battling ! He lost more then anyone in the group in Original series.
So Just because Misty Staryu hold off Molly longer then Brock doesn't mean its a huge Powerhouse .

We are talking about same Brock who had enough skills to qualify and enter Indigo league according to his father. Character who on first try was able to come as runner up in Gardenia contest almost defeating May at her own game despite not having any experience with it(he should had actually won, but writers decided to forcefully give that win to May). Who was able to come top 4 in Hearthome city tag battle tournament putting Paul into problems with his Croagunk and repeated use of brick break. Who was able to turn Onix disadvantage at Pewter gym when battling mother water pokemon in his strength altering battlefield to his advantage etc.

Just because Brock rarely battled does not mean he was weakling. Let alone punching bag, which implies someone who is often involved in battling losing constantly. Which cannot be even applied in Brock case.

Yet when facing Molly mirage pokemon who were several times stronger than normal forms Brock pokemon could not hold their own ground. But Misty Staryu was not able to just hold its own, but be on equal strength and speed with Molly mirage pokemon despite being much more powerful than normal real Mantine would be.
Let alone prowing itself in other battles such as defeating Marina Tentracruel with just one swift attack. Having double edge powerful enough to not just scatter James Weezing smog but send him flying to oblivion.

Constantly showing to be very dexterious, fast, resistant and strong pokemon.
Gyarados aside, Staryu is along with Politoad and Corsola, maybe Psyduck(with headache included) among Misty strongest pokemon always giving to opponent tough time.

But This Does not change that Iris & her Axew are Poorly Developed Character.

You can be poorly developed character, but still presented in story as powerful trainer. This two factors are not necessarily conjoined.

ust like that Iris-fan , Your doing to the same thing .
Claiming some Normal & predictable tactic as brilliant !
Misty using the water field to wash of Sleep-Power is the most basic and predictable thing any water Pokemon trainer would do .

Whether its predictable or not does not change fact how unlike Ash Misty knew how to use water terrain to her advantage in that battle. It does not mean how without water surface Misty Staryu would have lost against Butterfree. Especially when it proved to posess techniques such as water gun, rapid spin and double edge which successfully repelled powders and smog, smoke based techniques from pokemon like Weezing or Victreebel more than once.

So no, even without water surface there is no guarante that Ash would have won.

Because it would take just Corphise to take care of most of Original Misty's Pokemon ! Psyduck is the only Pokemon that pose any thread as long as Ash doesn't attack its head like the Bulbasaur Vs Psyduck battle .
Corphise are naturally Strong Pokemon due to their habit of picking fight ! Then Their is Grovyle and Swallow !

There is no solid groundwork to support such theory. Out of original Misty pokemon Corphish, Growyle or Swellov aee probably stronger than Goldeen or Horsea. But against Staryu, Politoad or Corsola it could be anyone game.

This statement is also ignoring fact that all of Misty pokemon were trained at gym in meantime while Ash traveled through Hoenn,Sinnoh, Unova etc hence basing outcome of battle invalidated. For simple fact of Misty pokemon not being at same level of strength like they were in OS nowadays.
Along with not being known if Psyduck in meantime learned how to control its powers becoming more competent in battling.

Tell me , Wasn't Misty experienced & Powerhouse Pokemon Staryu gotten its Ass-kicked by Ash's inexperienced Chikorita ?

Because apparently newly caught inexperienced pokemon cannot defeat more experienced ones? Such as Harrison newly captured Sneasel defeating battle hardened Pikachu of Ash in Silver Conference. May baby Squirtle defeating through luck Harley Ariados.
Dawn Piplup outplaying May more experienced Glaceon training it and practicing new techniques ever since it was Eevee?
Etc, etc.

Should we than say how Ash, May, Dawn or just about any trainer whose well trained pokemon lost to inexperienced one is weak?
No, not really because element of surpotise, shock and luck is present in every battle and can catch you unprepared.

Hence why Ash Chikorita was able to surprise Misty Staryu by catching it with vine whip not having time to react quick enough to prevent from being slammed into ground. However i believe fact that Misty Staryu was almost able to defeat grass pokemon like Chikorita who has 2x advantage over water with one water gun. Only preventing sure defeat by digging heels in ground in last second proves how Staryu is definitely no slouch.

Starmie doesn't have Eyes so When they are beaten they become unable to move and their Jewel start beeping ! Plus , Even if it tried to move , It doesn't have enough energy to dough a Quick attack.
Off Course , It said Misty's sister that Misty wouldn't had a chance to win the battle if Pikachu was willing to battle.

Just because Starmie doesnt have anthropomorphic features which allow vision like its case with humans, does not mean how it cannot see through different organ and sense someone presence independent from human tendency to decant their own characteristics on every living being.

Likewise Misty sisters, in this situation particulary Daisy doesn't have any credibility in her words being deemed as poor trainer and gym leader even by basic standards back than and now.

Therefore taking her words for granted of Misty not having any chance if Ash used Pikachu is questionable in least hand.

As For Misty beating the Weepinbell of the weakest student of Pokemon Tact , What Happened afterward ?
Let see, Misty Startmie got its ass-kicked by a Rock type like Graveler that belong to Giselle , Ash's 1st crush-
Even after falling in the Pool , It wasn't enough to heal Starmie !
As for beating James's Victorybell , The Original Jessie & James got their ass-kicked by everyone ! Including a catterpie and A little boys Eevee .
Ash Hoenn Team Had Pokemon that were pretty strong before they were capture !

Except Giselle was top school student , Misty used what everything indicated to be weaker pokemon of her two Starfish pokemon and whole point of episode was to teach audience important lesson how statistics and type advantage doesnt mean everything,. How choice of attacks, strategy, resistance and unexpected strategy can bring tide of duel in your favor winning you battle regardless of pokemon your facing against having on paper advantage or not.

Whether James is skilled trainer or not does not change fact how Misty Goldeen won that battle with Victreebel still having 2X advantage over water type and resisting water pokemon which counts for something. Hence being wrong thing to claim how it lost every battle, even though there werent many to begin with.

This is my last post regarding the matter ! If all 3 of us start arguing then this thread with become a huge Spam Thread !
I Started this matter & I'm ending it !

Thats fine by me, because when neither side is wiling to change its view or start to look at things from other person perspective is point of debate reaching stalemate starting to go nowhere.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Koga left his post as gym leader in pokemon Red, Blue and Yellow enthrusting that role to his daughter Janine.

After leaving gym and being promoted to E4 member 3 years passed with all gym leaders, E4 members, champions etc, being three years older. With Koga during that time not being anymore in charge of gym advancing in ranks of Kanto and Johto league, Since Koga wasnt in charge of Fuschia gym for full 3 years according to games , yet he wasnt still E4 member either. Logic says he traveled, went on special training and developed new techniques before he could end up accepted as suitable for such position in second generation.

Yeah, agreed, and that's not even taking into account FireRed and LeafGreen, where it was strongly implied that Koga decided to pursue a position at the Elite 4 specifically because he was beaten by the player character (if you go to a certain signpost at Fuschia City after beating the Elite 4 and your rival the first time around, you'll find a note scrawled on there where it states that he intends to train his daughter Janine as it was effectively time for both the player and for him).

If something is obvious as day,you do not need play with verb words in game to lead player to conclusion what Koga did during transition period while not being at gym anymore.

Yeah, agreed. Some things don't need to be stated for it to be apparent.

Further proof to promotion to E4 membership not happening without traveling to sharp your proficiency and overcoming tasks to even earn right for this posotion was showed through Caitlin. Who after leaving position of Castel Valet Darach traveled through region to further develop her trainer skills, innovation and resourcefulness before she could become strong enough to go on E4 challenge.

Fact that even trainer from Brain Frontier facilities which are in reputation and expertize on much higher level than gyms needed to go on travels to improve before standing chance to become E4, serves as very good proof how Kpga had no free pass either.

Having to rigorously train, travel and pass tests in period before he became E4. Which as we know wasnt at gym since his daughter was in charge of it at that time.

Yeah, agreed. And if Caitlin needed to become an Elite 4 member by traveling, it's most certain that Koga and presumably any other Gym Leader would need to become a Gym Leader.

And besides, you can't just hand over your position as Champion anyways despite what Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire implied with its Delta Episode. Even in RGBYFRLG and Black and White, it was strongly implied that one has to actually beat the Elite 4 in order to become champion (remember, Bianca and Blue had beaten the Elite 4 shortly before the player character did, and Bianca was the first time around, I believe). More likely than not, even in the Gen 3 remakes, Steven just invited Wallace to actually travel and get his badges, qualify for the league, fight the Elite 4 and eventually him so he could potentially retire.

One does not exclude other. Just because someone is filling up as gym leader does not mean he reached level of expertize and strength required to be on pair with E4 member as gym leader.

As evidenced in anime even E4 members can be temporarily gym leaders like Agatha was acting as substitute until Viridian gym leader gets appointed. But does that mean she reached thar level by staying at one place? No, not really.

Agatha reached such level of power, reputation, perception and complexity in her battle techniques by traveling, seeing world, discovering all kind of new pokemon, entering tournaments with high competition where she could showcase her skills and prove her prowess to other powerful trainers. Along with meeting, battling and learning from other specialists who were succesful before bher time of reign came.

Yeah, and the fact that Agatha effortlessly knocked Ash and his team down on their butts should make very clear that she was definitely not a pushover, certainly compared to Gym Leaders, who in AG really got the short end of the stick by making them weak.

Gym can only get you so far with key for further improvement lying in leaving it to learn new things and improve as trainer outside of it.

Yeah, agreed. Especially when, unless you actually have a reliable substitute on hand to allow you to actually go on your journey, you're pretty much stuck there especially when the PIA would most likely nail you to a door and shut down your gym if you are absent during an inspection.

Its same like with real life and education for example.
Once you finish high school learning everything you could there only way for enriching on your knowledge and going higher lies in moving on to higher step like college, later signing in PHD program etc in order to evolve. In sport like soccer once you learn everything you can in local league and club you originated from way for ranking up as player, developing your skill and talent to higher level of play only way to do so lies in transferring to higher league(in soccer terms A league) going on better, more prestigue clubs which participate in more intense competiotions, assess their reputation and strength vs pther European clubs of high quality like Champion league etc allowing player to evolve his play and knowledge on much higher level.

Well, I wouldn't say it's the only thing as there is such a thing as being self-taught which in some cases is even better (Albert Einstein never really did well in school, yet he managed to actually be a very good scientist), but still a good example (though, personally, speaking as someone who went through College and having to be subject to leftist brainwashing instead of actually learning things, plus the current job evaporations and PHD degrees at least here in America becoming extremely worthless, I'm not sure using college is actually the best example). The clubs and sports are a better example, though.

There is no other way around.

Yeah, there isn't, at least among trying to become Elite 4 member and Champion and achieving Water Pokémon Master goal. Even going to something like Pokémon Tech is not going to be good enough.

Its common sense. In "Around the Whirlpool" Misty dreams of becoming water master, than conviniently prof. Elm informs them how there exists Whirl Cup explaining how winner becomes "Alpha omega"(beggining and end to water pokemon). Something Misty eagerly accepts subscribing still fantasizing about becoming master of water pokemon.
Just to hear more about this in "Dueling Heroes"when sea priest Maya talks about water pokemon expert, "sea heroes" (Japanese water masters)which knew ins and outs of water types with title winner obtains in Whirl Cup being convoluted form of water pokemon master , one of steps they in past obtained before fulfilling this dream.
Whirl Cup was directly connected with Misty water master career since it dug deeper into that mentioning whole water master thing and expertize about water types previous water experts used to have.
While admittedly whole procedure was vague , it also had connections with Misty dream.

Yeah, agreed. The whole Water Pokémon Master bit may be more prevalent in the dub than in the Japanese version, but it was definitely present in the latter version despite what Dogasu claimed (he claimed, or at least strongly implied, that Misty's Water Pokémon Master was a dub addition, and throughout her appearances, her goal, or at least the closest thing to a goal, certainly her catchphrase, is claiming she was the most beautiful girl in the world in the 10th anniversary special comparison redo, although even he admitted that he might not be remembering things correctly). Besides, it wouldn't make sense for Misty to participate in the Whirl Cup in the first place especially with your description if Misty didn't have that goal in the Japanese version.

Two wrongs do not make something right. Constantly playing with what was established as canon in series changing it like caprice child randomly and depending on mood only defeats pobnt which anime tried to accomplish within storyline you as writer introduced in first place. Destroying plot, dropping in water accumulated knowledge and experience with show starting to look like joke, with no importance or identity.

Reflecting on popularity, reputation and people interest negatively.

Because basis for good storyline is consistency, balanced storyline and continuity.

Changing continuously this things would only further damage show filling it with plotholes existing on every step.

Yeah, agreed, and it's also one of the factors for Best Wishes' extreme unpopularity, and even the final round with Brandon had complaints amounting to this. Heck, AG may have also suffered through that as well in terms of ratings at least (which until XY at the latest it was the lowest rated show ever). Heck, even more popular franchises like the Metal Gear and Star Wars franchises get a lot of flak largely because of how they are infamously needlessly retconning the whole story (Star Wars in particular was hit with it worst after Disney's Legends Continuity creation to effectively override the Expanded Universe pre-Disney acquisition especially in light of the new trilogy, but even before that we had such things like George Lucas redoing Han Solo's duel with Greedo to make it seem as though Greedo shot first, and worse, even claimed that's how it always was despite even the shooting script making clear Han shot first; and the Metal Gear franchise is rather notorious for basically retconning the heck out of its story, to such an extent that this was one of the reasons why fans of that franchise want remakes to the MSX2 games, since the retcons were extensive enough that they cannot be kept canon as is, and all this is because Kojima feels he's too much of an artist to be constrained by things like a plot.).

Needless to say until writers contradict what they established as canon in previous sagas through something else. Rewriting completely what they established about someone dream and way to achieve it before. Something which in Misty case regardng water master career was presented as prestigious title requiring traveling, winning tournaments like Whirl Cup is and reaching E4 level of strength.

With introduction of Iris and her progression toward title of dragon master once again only reinforcing on fact how traveling in Misty case to become water master is indeed required.

Yeah, and that's not even counting the other GLs in the series such as Candice, Volkner, Blane, and Fantina. Heck, in Iris's case, the fact that she actually refused to become a Gym Leader, at least not yet, as she still intended to pursue her Dragon Pokémon Master goal, way late into Best Wishes, should make very clear that one can't really advance if they are stuck as a Gym Leader (and considering this would have been around the time she was due to be removed and replaced anyways, that's further proof and certainly nullifies the claim that she's only travelling so the anime can have an excuse for her to join Ash.).

As long writers dont cancel out actions of past series through new plots rewriting history, events of previous sagas are ultimate and indisputable 100% canon.

Yeah, and Best Wishes came very close to basically nullifying the canon of all the shows before that one thanks to their making Ash into a huge idiot in that series, not to mention exceptionally weak (At least in DP, Paul actually was implied even before Torterra was unveiled to not be a rookie trainer. Having Ash lose to a rookie who was literally just out the door to begin his new journey as well as losing to a huge idiot in the Unova League and having him decreasing in rank was just... ugh...).

Just like writers set up situation at gym which left Misty with no choice but to directly face her fears in repairing damage Gyarados left on her psyche before.

They would had just as easily write storyline for Misty to end up confronting Gyarados in wild while traveling with Ash. Either by being separated from Ash and co ending lost in forest near lake with Gyarados attacking her. Forcing Misty to find way out of dangerous situation calming it down and earning its confidence.

Or having to help other people from Gyarados with no one else being there to save their lives. Forcing Misty to think of quick and creative solutions in drawing Gyarados attention away and dropping in water near him reviving on childhood memories and struggling in trying to face them when urgent situation calls for it.
I could list scenarios whole day.

Yeah, agreed. There are plenty of ways for Misty to overcome her fear besides becoming a Gym Leader. Heck, Ash didn't need to become a Gym Leader to gain control of Charizard or Primeape. And Dawn didn't need to with her Mamoswine, either. May most certainly didn't need to become a Gym Leader to get over her fear of Pokémon as a whole, either. If they could do it without becoming a Gym Leader, Misty most certainly can as well.

Circumstances under which Misty would catch Gyarados and gain its love and respect would be different, but there is no denying how Misty could had receive just as great, if not even more meaningful development from confronting Gyarados by herself when traveling with Ash as well.

Just like Ash had to work on earning Charizard support, Dawn with Mamoswine, Iris for Dragonite etc.

Yeah, agreed, and considering that it was explicitly stated in the first movie that if one has to be an exceptionally skilled trainer to actually gain control over Gyarados, a Pokémon that's infamous for being extremely rowdy and being exceptionally difficult to control, that would actually prove undeniably that Misty actually does have the makings either way for a Pokémon Master.

Power of plot dictates what will happen and writers could had create all kind of situations in which Misty development regarding Gyarasdos would had happened regardless of traveling, being at gym or somewhere else.

Trying to deny this is very narrowminded way of looking at this things from writer perspective, especially when whole issue of putting Misty in situation at Cerulean where she had no choice but to confront Gyarados was chain of invented plotlines leading to such moment.

Yeah, and besides, plenty of other characters managed to gain control of notoriously difficult Pokémon, Pokémon that they, while not necessarily fearing them, were nonetheless extremely reluctant to use because of them being difficult to control, and if they could do it without becoming a Gym Leader or otherwise not being among Ash's group, Misty can as well.

Except your forgetting fact how Sakura collected gym badges randomly for something entirely different than qualifying for league first competing against Falkner and Bugsy to win Zephyr and Hive badge. Skipping Whitney and Morty facing Chuck of Cianwood for storm badge.

Just to suddenly stop traveling through Johto going to Kanto starting to challenge gym leaders there with Misty being in neighbourhood as closest next gym for her to challenge.

Since we do not know for what Sakura tried to qualify by jumping from callenging gym leaders in one region to another, your argument is invalid.

Yeah, agreed. We really don't know, so it can't be used as an argument for or against anything.

Also sole reason why Misty warn him not to challenge Pewter gym was because:
-Ash was cocky braggart who had zero training involved with his pokemon underestimating everyone,
-because against rock, ground type pokemon he only had Pikachu, Butterfree and Pidgeotto. With all 3 being highly vulnerable and at disadvantage against pokemon type Brock used.

With Misty even offering her water pokemon knowing Ash would otherwise stand no chance with current skills and preparation. Brock status and fame had nothing to do with Ash being suggested not to challenge him. Main reason was because Ash didnt prepared himself and had no pokemon of any efficiency for that type of match.

Yeah, and even his "winning" against Brock was solely due to luck due to the sprinklers being set off accidentally. Even with Flint's plan to supercharge Pikachu, it was still a hopeless match against Onix (as it still was resistant enough to the electricity to nearly crush Pikachu despite clearly being affected by Pikachu's supercharged electricity during that time). And technically he never actually won, anyways as he forfeited the match and implied that he felt using the sprinklers would have been a cheap win.

And personally, I kinda wish Caterpie didn't win easily against Team Rocket in the third episode, especially when it was most likely that win that caused Ash to be exceptionally cocky during that time (it was the only battle other than the one against Samurai that was interrupted by Beedrill that he had under his belt, as well as by that point his only real win.).

Yes not all gym leaders are equally strong, but at end of the day against rookie and beginner most of them wont be using best pokemon or using full strength to give challenger chance to win badge. Since their main job is to evaluate trainers to determine if theyre ready to go for league or not.

I wouldn't be so sure if they weren't using their full strength, actually. I know Lt. Surge and Sabrina at least actually were using their full strength (in fact, in Surge's case, he notoriously sends his opponent's Pokémon to the ER once he's through with them, and had done so 15 times in a single month by the time Ash and Co. arrived at the Pokémon Center).

With most challenegrs gym leader face being of weaker calliber , than its case with trainers you can face in big tournaments, in specific challenging facilities like Battle Frontier was or by traveling across world meeting much higher variety of trainers that way. Rather than hoping veteran would pick your gym coming for challenge.

That part I can agree on, especially considering how even with Ash, he still has to use Rookie teams (Paul was also implied to have used his vets to beat the Gym Leaders, and even he initially used some rookies to beat some Gym Leaders such as Roark). And if Misty continues being a Gym Leader, she'll eventually turn out like the Hoenn Gym Leaders or worse the Unova Gym Leaders (as those GLs were notoriously pathetic in AG and Best Wishes by losing easily to rookie Pokémon, and in the case of the latter, to a guy who acted like he got brain damage). Even Iris at least managed to actually travel.

Especially when it has been established in anime how there exists more than 8 badges per region. With Gary having 7 different badges from Ash when battling Kanto gym leaders, Otoshi having 4 badges which does not exist in games in Kanto. Same applies to trainer at Indigo league having 8 completely different badges than Ash coming from Kanto. Indicating Kanto has at least 27 gyms.

In Hoenn Morison had badge nonexistant in games in Hoenn.
In Sinnoh Nando and Barry had 4 badges not corresponding to any known badge you can acquire in Sinnoh games,still being from that region. Indicating at least 12 official gyms existing in DP.

Same applies to Unova where based on unindentified gym badges Trip and Cameron collected by traveing through BW proving how at least 14 gyms exists in that region.

Yeah, agreed. I think only Johto seems to have exactly eight badges, and that's only because it's the only region where there aren't any anime-exclusive Gym Badges (unless one counts Misty's fight against that Water Gym Leader). Probably the closest Johto has to a non-game badge is the Silver Wing, and even THAT is never indicated to be applicable to the Silver Conference.

As its made pretty clear. Fact how each region has more than 8 gyms where trainers can battle for badges in hopes of entering regional league, with such wide number of gyms chances of gym leaders receiving large influx of veteran and strong challenges to battle is much, much smaller compared to number of rookies and mediocre trainers you face on daily basis. Being very possible for your gym to end up skipped in favor of some other based on how close trainer is to certain town and gym leader.

Yes, and even Ash had to choose between two gyms in Best Wishes (which was a clever way to deal with the fact that there were technically nine gyms thanks to two of them being version-exclusive).

Who says how Volkner was in position of leaving gym? In case you dont have relative or appropriate substitute, you cannot leave gym for indefinite period of time or permanently unless there exists person qualified enough to take your duties.

Yeah, and considering he's the guy who maintains Sunyshore City's power and pretty much developed the power plant, he probably can't leave the town even if he got the above.

Its not just Volkner, others like Blaine too revealed how long stays at gym dont allow you to learn much starting to stagnate due to majoity of challengers being trainers of weaker calliber.

Hence why any gym leader which wanted or wants to improve skills, develop more sophisticated ways of countering opponent attacks and overcoming weakness of your pokemon goes on journey. To enter various competitions, learn about new pokemon species, search for stronger trainers and witnessing to use of strategy and move combinastions they never had chance to see before.

Because if sitting at gym and battling challengers gives enough experience, knowledge and strong trainers to reach higher level as trainer. Than why Viola leave gym on every opportunity to improve skills? Or Grant?

Why Candice travels? Wallace travels? Cilan travels? Clemont?

Why Fantina is absent for months with explanation of developing new battle style and more effective strategies if she could do that at gym?
Answer is she cannot, thats why she is on journey so often.

Yeah, and if that's not proof enough that Misty simply cannot achieve her goals when becoming a Gym Leader, I don't know what is.

Moreso even in games its strongly revealed how in order to advance as trainer with gym not teaching you enough was showcased through gym leaders like Misty in second generation. Which specifically stated how she is going to leave gym and travel to strength her abilities as trainer battling stronger people. Just to get firther comformation in BW2 games where Misty was traveling trainer by time she competed in World Cup dreaming of meeting and battling all kind of high ranked, reputable pokemon experts furthering her knowledge and skills.

Yes, and Misty in the second gen remakes and possibly even the first gen remakes is especially notable as it seemed as though they actually were incorporating a lot of elements of her Anime character in there, as they significantly remodeled Cerulean Gym's interior to closely resemble its appearance in the Anime, having Togepi react with nostalgia when having it interact with Misty in a clear reference to her Togepi/Togetic, mentioning offhandedly as a rumor that she worships Lorelei of the Elite 4, and basically incorporated the above characteristics about wanting to travel and grow stronger to become a Water Pokémon Master. I think she's the ONLY Gym Leader to be given a significant amount of her Anime counterpart's personality, as even Brock, trading a Ryhorn with Thunderfang for a Bonsly aside (which is pretty much the only thing he himself has in common with Anime Brock, well, that and maybe the design of his gym, though it still was different from the games), was completely different in his game characterization than with his Anime characterization even in HGSS, as while his Anime characterization doesn't care about battle that much or getting stronger by battling, Brock in the games was a clear battle fanatic, there's little evidence that he even desires to be a breeder beyond the aforementioned trade, and if anything, his hobby in the games is collecting fossils and aiding Pewter Museum in fossil excavations in Mt. Moon, something the Anime doesn't even seem to hint at. It's also never made clear in the Anime whether he actually prefers Rock Types (especially when he caught several Pokémon that clearly weren't related to rock types in any way, and in fact, until he got Bonsly/Sudowoodo, he never caught a single rock type since joining Ash on his journey. And the only Pokémon he got that was even tangentially ground type, the only other prevalent Pokémon type his gym has as a secondary type was his Marshstomp), while in the game, he clearly prefers Rock Types.

And that reminds me, even Brock in HGSS stated that he needs to get stronger outside the gym, though he never goes as far as to state he needs to travel unlike Misty. And I think the fact that Misty is actually given a significant amount of references to her Anime counterpart, to the extent that Misty's characterization in the games, or at least their remakes, is the closest we've got to Misty's Anime counterpart actually being in the games serves as a testament to the immense popularity of her Anime counterpart.

I didnt say there isnt any, so please refrain from presenting something i never carried out.
But when multiplied with number of gyms existing per each region as explained in analysis before, number of trainers willing to enter league(because not every strong trainer will challenge Indigo league or pursue same goal Ash does) and how many of stronger trainers each gym leader would battle against depending on area of region they travel through and which gym leders are on their way or not.

Yeah, though DP is a bit ambiguous in that regard since the indents in badge cases imply a limit not only in regards to the amount of gyms one can challenge, but also which gyms can be challenged. And besides, Ash encountered quite a few trainers who were clear veterans from other regions (Aside from Harrison in the Silver Conference, there was also the guy with the first stage evolutions of the Kanto Starters who got the Cascade badge for cleaning Cerulean Gym's pool).

Displays how only minority of challengers gym leaders receive are skilled, ace class of trainers. So called veterans, with majority when looking at percentage of challengers gym leader face on daily basis being made of beginners, low tier and mediocre type of trainers.
Since thats highest number of tainers existing in pokemon world. Hence why any gym leader which wants to rank up, exceed his curent knowledge and battle expertize traves in search for stronger trainers, entering tough competition in various tournaments etc,. As anime made it pretty clear with large number of them, but games as well.

Yeah, and even among those trainers actually confirmed to be veterans and ace-class trainers, it's even rarer that they'll actually be using more than one veteran Pokémon that isn't their starter against them (even Ash had to use largely rookies barring Pikachu), so chances are they're faced with rookies either way. I think Paul is the only trainer confirmed to actually use his vets in most Gym Leader battles.

True of a part doesnt make something true as a whole.
You should know that by now.

You can have more than one dream wanting to achieve. Take for example Nando who both wanted to become champion and top coordinator.

Yeah, and even Ash had some minor goals on the sidelines as well, like those mini-tournaments that have little if anything to do with actually becoming a Pokémon Master.

Even when it was revealed how Misty ambition of becoming strongest water trainer in world turned out to mean becoming water master. She still didnt stopped having side dreams such as meeting and catching mysterious legendary water pokemon understanding its origins. She didnt stopped dreaming of catching Tentacruel or going to France visiting Paris.

Yeah, agreed. And it didn't stop Ash and Brock from doing various side things that don't directly relate to their personal goals.

Hoever her main dream was and always had been becoming water pokemon master/top water trainer in world learning as much as she can about them being one of main things defining character.

Yeah, and her goal of being a Water Pokémon Trainer was actually stated or at least implied as early as Tentacool and Tentacruel.

Whirl Cup revealing through lore more of what water master means to be. Fascination about E4 Lorelei wanting to reach her level of fame and craftmanship. Not being possible to become water master without traveling are all clear, cut out facts demonstrately showed in pokemon series both through Misty and Iris character.

There is diference between canon and fans headcanon tailoring main character dreams to their own according.

Yes, and it is pretty clear that canonically she wants to be a Water Pokémon Master.

Let see:
In "Around the Whirlpool" Misty dreams of becoming water master, than conviniently prof. Elm informs them how there exists Whirl Cup explaining how winner becomes "Alpha omega"(beggining and end to water pokemon). Something Misty eagerly accepts subscribing still fantasizing about becoming master of water pokemon.

Just to hear more about this in "Dueling Heroes"when sea priest Maya talks about water pokemon expert, "sea heroes" (Japanese water masters)which knew ins and outs of water types with title winner obtains in Whirl Cup being convoluted form of water pokemon master , one of steps they in past obtained before fulfilling this dream.

Whirl Cup was directly connected with Misty water master career since it dug deeper into that mentioning whole water master thing and expertize about water types previous water experts used to have.

While admittedly whole procedure was vague and left details unexplained this event probed how winning big water tournaments is mandatory to earn water master title.

Also definitions of dragon and water masters were already given, only procedure and tasks required to be fulfilled to warrant such title hasnt been cleared out and properly defined.
Dragon master career involves to learn how to understand "hearts of dragon pokemon" and raising into strong battlers with title being given by elders from village.

Water master goal was stated to envelop becoming stongest water trainer in world. Judging by Misty worshipping E4 Lorelei wanting to reach such power creep one day implied to mean becoming E4(given they are titled as type masters in games).

Yes, that's a significant amount of evidence pointing to what her goal was. In fact, arguably, she had a more defined goal than even Ash did (as we never got a sense that he had to actually fight and beat the Elite 4 and regional champion until Diamond and Pearl, with even winning a league or beating the Battle Frontier not giving him the rank of master since he continued his journey despite doing the above [Orange League, to be more specific]).

Clair isn't dragon master. She likes to think of herself as "best dragon master in world" according to games,. But she always lose to Lance who is officially labelled as dragon master with his grandfather being elder of famous clan of dragon master.

In anime Clair was never, but absolutely never titled as dragon master either, even when hearing from Iris how she wants to become dragon master. While Lance on other hand was labelled as legendary master of dragon types.

We heard Ash referring to himself as "most skilled trainer there ever was", but just because someone likes to showcase himself in better light infront of others doesn't make something reality.

I figured Clair couldn't have been called that in the Anime at any point, but I wasn't entirely sure, so thanks for confirming that she wasn't. And honestly, considering Claire in the games was a sore loser (honestly, even Whitney was at least gracious enough to not have the player be forced to undergo a nearly impossible task to win a badge out of spite for losing, and she basically threw a temper tantrum and nearly forgot to give you the badge), I wouldn't put much stock into what she says about herself anyways. Besides, it's pretty clear she's not a master when her own cousin Lance was not only an Elite 4 member in Kanto, but even the champion in Johto in either case.

Because according to anime canon dragon master title is given by elders from dragon village to any trainer specializing in dragon pokemon who learned how to reach to hearts and inner feelings of them to the point of sensing their pain, damage they receive in battle and deepest fears. Functioning like one mind when batling together and having highly advanced skills in utilizing this specie in most productive way.

Whole procedure and possible tasks and evaluatons to reach dragon marer totle was unpolished leaving several questions unanswered. But what is known is how this title is assigned from people in dragon village.

Yeah, and it was pretty clear from Iris's refusal that she can't get the position by being a Gym Leader.

Im not sure what correlation Brock career of becoming top breeder has to do with type master careers.

But it was already explained in prevous messages how from any great breeder in world its expected that he knows how to prepare nutritients, food and all kind of diverse potions for pokemon. Groom them, take care of pokemon with lot of love and caree raised to be in top shape. Healthy, satisfied and unlocking their inner strength and qualities through other completely different mehods which has nothing to do with battling and learning attacks.
With top breeders being best among best ones as far as raising pokemon and reaching best possible physical condition in speed, agility, resistance, goes along with condition of furr or skin. Reflecting if pokemon is taken care of in great or poor manner.

It is also obvious why Brock career of becoming top breeder had limitations in how much it can be explored and developed due to passive nature not involving action. And its controversy for kids oriented anime.

Yeah, agreed. Though I'm surprised that breeding in a kids anime would be controversial, especially when the likes of Dragon Ball featured porno magazines despite it being for kids, the age bracket Pokémon is implied to be geared towards, anyways. And really, Brock's goal doesn't even have anything to do with Type Masters or even the concept of Pokémon Master itself.

That logic is very weak. Because regardless of Iris joining Ash on travels or not, she would have still been sent on journey according to her story. With Elder giving her Axew and saying how traveling will be of invaluable experience for her on road of becoming dragon master.

Yeah, and besides, if that was really the reason, just to have an excuse for her to join Ash on her journey, she would have accepted the position of Gym Leader, only asking that she have a bit more time with Ash before she gets started, especially when her refusing the position was around the time where she was due to be replaced anyways. Heck, Candice promised Zoey she'd go for the Leagues, and neither of them ever actually travelled with Ash long-term.

Not to mention if "gym leader position instantly makes you dragon master", Iris would have accepted Drayden offer instead of choosing to continue traveling. Knowing she can learn much more about dragon pokemon, see new types of their specie, legendary dragpns such as Rayquaza. Meeting and battling strong dragon trainers like Clair alongside entering tournaments and encountering all kind of diverse techniques and creative battle styles improving her own expertize tht way,

Agreed, especially when the time she was requested to become Gym Leader and she turned down the offer to continue travelling was around the time she was due to be removed from the show anyway.

More than she could ever hope for if she became gym leader rarely, if ever having time and opportunity to leave and travel . Especially for long time period with obligations and duty holding her back.

Agreed. She'd need to travel to continue getting stronger and more knowledgeable. Something the Gym simply cannot offer.

Needless to say if your going to shift burden of traveling on part of anime propaganda to justify Ash long travels across the regions.

You might want to reconsider your wording because games promote exact same thing with pokemon animer only promoting importance of traveling gamefreak established in first place regarding exploring world, discovering new species of pokemon, people and making huge improvements in trainer scene becoming famous .

Yeah, the games promoted this as well. Sure, barring Generation 2 and arguably Generation 4 (since the Battle Zone is implied to be a different region altogether from Sinnoh), you can't actually travel between different regions unlike the Anime where it's mandated that trainers travel to other regions, but the emphasis on travel increasing a trainer's strength is still present regardless.

As noticed with NPC characters such as: Misty who in HGSS and BW2 wants to lave gym in games and travel to improve as trainer. Where Caitlin went on journey leaving her reputable position in Battle Frontier she holds in Platinum to learn new techniques and becomer stronger in order to end up promoted to E4 position in BW2 games.
Where Koga before he would be accepted to join E4 left Fuschia gym to daughter Janine with 3 full years passing after he stopped being gym leader and becoming E4 likely training and traveling. He certainly didnt ate candies fooling around in between. Etc, etc.

Well, technically Misty desired that in FRLG as well, but good point. And yeah, Koga certainly didn't spend three years sitting around, especially when it was clear that he stopped being a Gym Leader by that time.

Clair isn't dragon master and Drayden didn't became dragon master by simply taking position of Opelucid city gym leader. Not beng known what requirements, tests, competitions he needed to overcome and prove himsekf to be given title of dragon master in first place. He is highly tied to elders from dragon village often visiting them and being in contact with matriarh of dragon village who sent Iris on journey to become dragon master in first place.

Yeah. whenever he did become a Dragon Pokémon Master, it was clearly before he became a Gym Leader. And Claire was definitely not a Dragon Master if Lance is her superior (and besides, she never considered herself that in the Anime).

Your mixing apples wth oranges in here. Because gym leader and type master are two separate entities being completely independent from each other. Otherwise every gym leader would be type master, but that clearly is not the case. Far from it.

Yeah, they aren't masters. Otherwise, they wouldn't be losing to rookie trainers or at the very least rookie Pokémon teams as constantly as they are.

On other hand every E4 member is type master. What does this tell us?

It tells us that E4 members are closer to type masters than GLs, if not ARE type masters (and honestly, that's not even taking into account champions).

Some gym leaders are more privileged than others. Those who have someone to fill in for them or are able to find substitute to travel for indefinite period of time can leave on long journeys, catching new pokemon, searching for stzronger trainers and entering tournaments.
While some are tied down to gym not having much choice but to stay there.

Yeah, agreed. That's also the reason why Misty can't continue her journey (she tried to rejoin Ash in the beginning of Battle Frontier, and she basically was forced to not do so by Daisy).

Either way at end of the day for Misty in order to become water pokemon master short trips like Clair did are not sufficient nor provide enough time to compete in tournaments. Travel to distant regions, learning how to use water pokemon to full potential through mega evolution and meetng other prestigious water experts like Lorelei, Wallace Siebold etc teaching her secrets about water pokemon and how to achieve perfect synchronization with them.

With only long trips which Cilan, Wallace, Brock, Clemont etc are able to make giving enough time and space to progress on substantial level without being limited in your movements and where and for how long you can go.

Yeah, and this is one reason why Misty really needs to return, or at least not be placed into a gym for extended periods of time, especially when XY's ratings are as bad as they are and may result in the cancellation of the Anime as a whole. Better to tie up loose ends while they still can rather than leave threads hanging.

We are talking about same Brock who had enough skills to qualify and enter Indigo league according to his father. Character who on first try was able to come as runner up in Gardenia contest almost defeating May at her own game despite not having any experience with it(he should had actually won, but writers decided to forcefully give that win to May). Who was able to come top 4 in Hearthome city tag battle tournament putting Paul into problems with his Croagunk and repeated use of brick break. Who was able to turn Onix disadvantage at Pewter gym when battling mother water pokemon in his strength altering battlefield to his advantage etc.

Just because Brock rarely battled does not mean he was weakling. Let alone punching bag, which implies someone who is often involved in battling losing constantly. Which cannot be even applied in Brock case.

Yeah, he wasn't weak even if AG loved to make him that weak.

Yet when facing Molly mirage pokemon who were several times stronger than normal forms Brock pokemon could not hold their own ground. But Misty Staryu was not able to just hold its own, but be on equal strength and speed with Molly mirage pokemon despite being much more powerful than normal real Mantine would be.
Let alone prowing itself in other battles such as defeating Marina Tentracruel with just one swift attack. Having double edge powerful enough to not just scatter James Weezing smog but send him flying to oblivion.

Yeah, that should show Misty's definitely not weak during her time on the main cast.

Constantly showing to be very dexterious, fast, resistant and strong pokemon.
Gyarados aside, Staryu is along with Politoad and Corsola, maybe Psyduck(with headache included) among Misty strongest pokemon always giving to opponent tough time.

Agreed, and even Misty's Starmie was not a slouch either (after all it did give Pidgeotto a hard time before it used one of its gust attacks to slam it against a wall, and it did beat that Student's Weepinbell despite being at a type disadvantage.). Probably the only one of Misty's Pokémon that truly was weak was her Goldeen, and even that did get one win under its belt, and against a Pokémon that had the type advantage, no less (Horsea doesn't count as it was never actually used in a battle during its time with Misty, and so its strength is indeterminate.).

You can be poorly developed character, but still presented in story as powerful trainer. This two factors are not necessarily conjoined.

Yeah, agreed. One's abilities is not the same as truly being developed.

Whether its predictable or not does not change fact how unlike Ash Misty knew how to use water terrain to her advantage in that battle. It does not mean how without water surface Misty Staryu would have lost against Butterfree. Especially when it proved to posess techniques such as water gun, rapid spin and double edge which successfully repelled powders and smog, smoke based techniques from pokemon like Weezing or Victreebel more than once.

So no, even without water surface there is no guarante that Ash would have won.

Yeah, and in fact, considering Butterfree actually needed to dodge the water blasts and even before getting hit and shot down he just barely dodged the blasts, it was pretty clear that Staryu at the very least didn't need eyes to actually see its opponent, assuming it didn't have eyes anyways.

There is no solid groundwork to support such theory. Out of original Misty pokemon Corphish, Growyle or Swellov aee probably stronger than Goldeen or Horsea. But against Staryu, Politoad or Corsola it could be anyone game.

This statement is also ignoring fact that all of Misty pokemon were trained at gym in meantime while Ash traveled through Hoenn,Sinnoh, Unova etc hence basing outcome of battle invalidated. For simple fact of Misty pokemon not being at same level of strength like they were in OS nowadays.
Along with not being known if Psyduck in meantime learned how to control its powers becoming more competent in battling.

Agreed overall. And besides, Ash's Kanto team weren't slouches either, yet even they had some difficulty against the Kanto Gym Leaders, so I wouldn't even say the Hoenn pokemon are all that strong (if anything the fact that they beat the Hoenn Gym Leaders effortlessly speaks more volumes on how pathetic the Hoenn GLs were than of any real strength the Hoenn team had).

Because apparently newly caught inexperienced pokemon cannot defeat more experienced ones? Such as Harrison newly captured Sneasel defeating battle hardened Pikachu of Ash in Silver Conference. May baby Squirtle defeating through luck Harley Ariados.
Dawn Piplup outplaying May more experienced Glaceon training it and practicing new techniques ever since it was Eevee?
Etc, etc.

Should we than say how Ash, May, Dawn or just about any trainer whose well trained pokemon lost to inexperienced one is weak?
No, not really because element of surpotise, shock and luck is present in every battle and can catch you unprepared.

You have a point there, but then again, Team Rocket did end up beaten by an inexperienced and extremely weak Caterpie (near-death from something they weren't even responsible for) in the third episode, so sometimes being beaten by more inexperienced Pokémon really is a sign of weakness.

Hence why Ash Chikorita was able to surprise Misty Staryu by catching it with vine whip not having time to react quick enough to prevent from being slammed into ground. However i believe fact that Misty Staryu was almost able to defeat grass pokemon like Chikorita who has 2x advantage over water with one water gun. Only preventing sure defeat by digging heels in ground in last second proves how Staryu is definitely no slouch.

Yeah, agreed with that.

Just because Starmie doesnt have anthropomorphic features which allow vision like its case with humans, does not mean how it cannot see through different organ and sense someone presence independent from human tendency to decant their own characteristics on every living being.

Yes, and besides, Staryu managed to aim well against Butterfree despite lacking any eyes. And besides, we don't even know if Starmie was actually going to lose thanks to Team Rocket interrupting the battle. It was still near a pool of water, it's core wasn't broken, so it can still jump in and recover and continue fighting Pidgeotto, maybe even beat it in a similar manner to Butterfree, and do a spin attack to dispel Pidgeotto's gust-based attacks like gust and whirlwind.

Likewise Misty sisters, in this situation particulary Daisy doesn't have any credibility in her words being deemed as poor trainer and gym leader even by basic standards back than and now.

Yeah, agreed. Not to mention the show already had a tendency to throw type advantages out of the window anyways. And agreed with Daisy, Lily and Violet. I think the only one who was even worse of a Gym Leader than them is Lola (and that's largely because of the messes she caused at Pewter Gym that forced Brock to interfere twice), and even she was at least implied to be skilled enough of a trainer to actually have control over a Gyarados.

Therefore taking her words for granted of Misty not having any chance if Ash used Pikachu is questionable in least hand.

Yeah. After all, there were plenty of times Ash beat Pokémon despite being at a type disadvantage (if type advantages mattered, Caterpie would have been utterly screwed since both Ekans and Koffing's Poison types alone would have defeated him, to say little about their experience compared to him or the fact that they were more fresh compared to Caterpie who was near-dead thanks to Ash's stupidity).

Except Giselle was top school student , Misty used what everything indicated to be weaker pokemon of her two Starfish pokemon and whole point of episode was to teach audience important lesson how statistics and type advantage doesnt mean everything,. How choice of attacks, strategy, resistance and unexpected strategy can bring tide of duel in your favor winning you battle regardless of pokemon your facing against having on paper advantage or not.

Whether James is skilled trainer or not does not change fact how Misty Goldeen won that battle with Victreebel still having 2X advantage over water type and resisting water pokemon which counts for something. Hence being wrong thing to claim how it lost every battle, even though there werent many to begin with.

Yeah, agreed. Not to mention, a huge contributing factor in Starmie's defeat in Giselle's case was the fact that her Graveler crushed Starmie's core, meaning even if it landed in a pool, it can't recover (the Pokedex made clear that it can recover so long as its core remained intact).

And yes, Goldeen didn't lose every battle it had.

Honestly, Misty does need to return, at the very least so her Water Pokémon Master goal can actually be pursued. It was a mistake to force her into the gym. And it's not like the writers and game creators weren't aware of her overwhelming popularity and fan appeal anyways: Aside from tweets from Mayumi Iizuka that hinted at reappearances if not stated them directly and the various cameos Misty got, the games apparently incorporated a large amount of Misty's Anime Characterization into the games, something not even Brock got, which shows just how popular her Anime characterization is.

We'll need to continue this topic somehow, though.

 

[Poke425]

Yeah, agreed. Though I'm surprised that breeding in a kids anime would be controversial, especially when the likes of Dragon Ball featured porno magazines despite it being for kids, the age bracket Pokémon is implied to be geared towards, anyways.

This is probably because of executive meddling that resulted in the anime being kiddified. In fact its very difficult to even discuss about Pokémon breeding/mating without running into criticism from other users (http://www.pokecommunity.com/archive/index.php/t-32199.html is a good example of this).

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

This is probably because of executive meddling that resulted in the anime being kiddified. In fact its very difficult to even discuss about Pokémon breeding/mating without running into criticism from other users (http://www.pokecommunity.com/archive/index.php/t-32199.html is a good example of this).

Hmm... Didn't Disney claim that they only got away with sex in Lady and the Tramp because the characters in question who did the act were dogs? That's what I've heard at least.

Either way, this is really confusing.