[Other] Stop Binary Hacking; It's Holding Back the Entire Community

[Anthroyd]

Spoiler:

*This site still exists..?* 😉 jk.

Only three points.

Haven's new tools are also an anchor holding the community back.

I disagree. If HMA is a deciding factor for whether to use binary over decomp, then instead of complaining that it exists, try to do some research on *why* it is so much more attractive than the decomps. Clearly there is an entry barrier that HMA doesn't have. Focus on lessening that barrier if you would like more people to consider switching.

(Haven has continually addressed entry barriers and use-ability of his tool, which is part of what makes so many people enjoy using it today.)

—

HMA was built to potentially support other games in the future, like Kirby. Therefore, even if 99% of binary hacking were to die out for the 'mon games, HMA will likely still be around and useful. This isn't a disagreement with anything said by Magius, but I feel it is a bit misunderstood so I'd like to say that.

—

It may be difficult to put yourself in a novice's shoes to understand how confusing version control, packages, blah blah blah are for beginners. Think about a CS 101 class. The students are frankly very dumb in this area and even the most obvious of things are hard to them.

Not ripping on students, just a fact to help my explanation! :)

Decomps are great, however binary hacking is much faster and easier for small-scale hacks like difficulty changes. Like I mentioned earlier, the entry barrier for decomp in these easy scenarios is just too much for most hackers. I say "most" because I believe most are quite basic and only want to change simple things like encounter rates, shiny odds, difficulty, etc.

…In conclusion, I do not believe binary hacking is "holding back the decomps." Find a way to lessen the barrier to entry. If there is no way, then accept that there are some valid reasons to use quick solutions like HMA to make some changes. The people who are not savvy enough to use the decomps probably wouldn't be contributing to their development anyway, so there is no need to shame them for using binary.

Good thread! :)

 

[SolarisLumos]

This is literally the most elitist thread I have ever read in my time on the internet. Get a goddamn grip on yourselves lmao.

Who cares what tools people use? As long as it ends being stable (which I've seen with binary engine upgrades like CFRU) and well balanced/fun to play, that's all that should matter to this community. Decomp is great, but posts like these will only make people feel rejected and not want to hack at all.

 

[ShinyTillDawn]

It's no question that decomp hacks are objectively better than binary hacks. It's like comparing, as previous speakers have mentioned, fossil fuels to renewable energy. However, many people in the United States are lobbied by fossil fuel industries, and thus refuse to support renewable energy movements. Thus, people here would be resistant to change. While absolutely no one should profit off of ROM hacks, quite a few people have spent lots of time making binary hacks, making programs for binary hacks, reporting bugs for those programs, etc. It would be a backstab for their efforts to be for nothing once decomp hacks completely take over. The creator of this thread could argue that making Hex Maniac Advance was a mistake in the first place (In my opinion, it's not.), but it got made, and lots of ROM hackers (especially me) appreciate its continued development over the years. I think continued development on HMA and pokéemerald can coexist as binary hacking & decomp hacking cater to different audiences. It's like Game Freak making generational changes to cater to VGC veterans while Pokémon Showdown accomedating their battle simulator to Smogon singles players. We can have both here!

Some of the best ROM hacks of all time are binary hacks, like Unbound & Glazed. In this day and age, you can make a competing ROM hack with the CFRU & AdvanceMap with no questions asked and still amass support from the average Pokémon fan. Also, gen 4 decomps are only, like, 10% complete, and gen 5 decomps do not exist. Let's not forget gen 3 ROMs in languages other than English and German. To my knowledge, there are no decomps for those. Even if pokéemerald's expansions are 100% complete, people will still have to binary hack if they want to release an NDS hack or if they don't have an English ROM of, say, Pokémon FireRed.

Admittedly, I only use decomps to hunt for areas in the ROM of my own binary hack, and I'm grateful for the existence of the pokeemerald .sym file that is generated from compiling base Pokémon Emerald. Despite people saying the "switch to decomp" emoji in Discord 24/7, I am content with supporting a supposedly-dying branch of ROM hacking by making bug reports, feature requests, and tutorials for Hex Maniac Advance, the best binary hacking tool of all time.

 

[Hiroshi Sotomura]

As someone who knows and understands full well the merits of your argument, if I were to ever consider making another hack, I still wouldn't use the decomps in their current state. For two reasons:

1. The only aspects of ROM hacking that are even fun to me any more are solving the problems that people love to say about "you can't do that on binary." Sure, binary hacking can be frustrating at times, but I know what I'm doing and the joy comes from overcoming those frustrations. And yes, I know decomps have their own share of frustrations, but what I find fun is up to me and no one else.
2. The Emerald battle engine upgrade is currently far inferior to the CFRU's. First off the CFRU's is actually complete, unlike Emerald's which is still missing several features. Second, the AI in the EBEU isn't nearly as good as the CFRU's. And third, most of the attack animations in the EBEU came from an older version of the CFRU. I've since updated many of those animations -- updates which are not reflected in the EBEU. So until the EBEU surpasses the CFRU's battle engine, I wouldn't willingly switch. And you could argue "But, Skeli, unless you quit binary hacking and improving the CFRU how are they supposed to pass it?". I'm one programmer who's barely done anything to it in the last year while they're a team of several. I think they have all the advantage they need.

In a few years your argument might have more weight, though, but who knows.

I'd argue that you're not the norm; as an experienced ROM hacker, you know what you're doing, and deservedly so, as you've expended the effort to get your head around it. I don't think that should be universally applied to every other ROM hacker, though. I can wholly relate, having gone through it as well. Yes, there's a nice little rush when you solve problems like overwritten data or dealt with the black box of bugs you'd inevitably encounter (and work around, effectively or otherwise). Not all users will share that same experience though.

But I won't discount your argument that the Emerald Expansion is lacking. Though if anything, it also benefits from being open-source, and contributions get poured into it fast. It's playing catchup with something that predates it and yes, has had significant contributions as well as all that time you've personally poured in as a result, but I'd stop short of saying it won't ever get there if not ahead. (Though I gotta say, albeit jokingly, can you even be impartial here? I know I'm not, haha.)

 

[Deokishisu]

As someone who knows and understands full well the merits of your argument, if I were to ever consider making another hack, I still wouldn't use the decomps in their current state. For two reasons:

1. The only aspects of ROM hacking that are even fun to me any more are solving the problems that people love to say about "you can't do that on binary." Sure, binary hacking can be frustrating at times, but I know what I'm doing and the joy comes from overcoming those frustrations. And yes, I know decomps have their own share of frustrations, but what I find fun is up to me and no one else.
2. The Emerald battle engine upgrade is currently far inferior to the CFRU's. First off the CFRU's is actually complete, unlike Emerald's which is still missing several features. Second, the AI in the EBEU isn't nearly as good as the CFRU's. And third, most of the attack animations in the EBEU came from an older version of the CFRU. I've since updated many of those animations -- updates which are not reflected in the EBEU. So until the EBEU surpasses the CFRU's battle engine, I wouldn't willingly switch. And you could argue "But, Skeli, unless you quit binary hacking and improving the CFRU how are they supposed to pass it?". I'm one programmer who's barely done anything to it in the last year while they're a team of several. I think they have all the advantage they need.

In a few years your argument might have more weight, though, but who knows.

If you're binary hacking for the artistry of it, then you are in a supremely-small minority of hackers and are not the target audience for this post. Most people want to create something and do it in a way that is as easy and pain-free as possible. Currently, thanks in part to your work, people are mistakenly assuming that binary is the easiest and most pain-free way of doing this. If you have fun doing the impossible on binary, then have at it. You are in the top percentage of binary hackers and most people will not be able to do what you do and extract the satisfaction from solving those problems.

I'm not involved in the EBEU so I can't say much about it, and I obviously have not used your CFRU (except for porting some minor stuff out of it years ago when it was just starting out for a decomp project that I never released). Your pointing out of the CFRU's advancements proves one of my points though--by insisting on doing this as C injection and hooking into existing routines, you are making it more difficult for the community to use and improve on your stuff. I am being accused of gatekeeping here and elsewhere, but binary advancements are opaque in ways that decomp advancements aren't. I am aware that the CRFU is open source, but because of how it is implemented there is a huge barrier of entry to porting it to the decomps in its entirety. In the hypothetical world where you started it well after the decomps were usable and therefore chose to use the decomps, CRFU would've been relevant and helped more people for much longer. As it is now, it will be largely abandoned when the transition takes place unless someone ports it, which I think is a huge shame.

Your work is very impressive and stands on its own merits. Obviously, I'm not implying that you're somehow obliged to contribute to the EBEU or whatever. Do what you like, but you have to acknowledge that you share some responsibility for delaying the transition to decomps.

 

[MuddyShadows]

At the start I thought I would disagree with you, but honestly, I do agree that most hackers should consider decomps if they're still at the first stages of their projects. Setting up pokeemerald's build environment is so easy it shouldn't even be considered a hindrance, it's literally just a 30 minutes read, no matter what operating system you're using.

That said, merge conflicts are a big problem, at least for new hackers. No, they're not that easy to deal with, and until not too long ago you had to merge and keep up with 3 different branches of a repository to have an up-to-date battle engine, expanded pokemon and items. Just for those. If you want to achieve the amount of features that can be found in the CFRU, for example, get ready to merge 10 or more, and of course learn to code the ones that simply don't exist yet.

Having to learn about versioning control and Git definitely raises the bar and makes hacking harder for noobs, but you're not wrong that, in the long term, this would only bring benefits to the scene. The more people get exposed to actual coding, the more advancements we are going to see popping up. It isn't gatekeeping, all the knowledge and code is literally there for anyone interested. Not to mention the folks at the Pret discord, which are almost always willing to help you with the most mundane questions you could come up with.

Now, in regards to the CFRU, I disagree that it's holding the community back because most of it can be used in decomp projects if you know what you're doing. It isn't like Skeli is just wasting his work on a forever inferior base. I do feel like the CFRU is too daunting to work with though, it's documentation is huge and out-of-date (at least that's what Skeli said, I didn't check it myself) and since it's pretty much an one-man project, we don't know for how long it will last, we only know that there probably isn't anyone else interested in maintaining it. I do wish Skeli was working on top of pokefirered or emerald, since C injection is pretty much just decomp hacking with extra steps, but at the end of the day he's just one guy and the burden of carrying "the future of the community" shouldn't be on him alone.

It's kinda funny to imagine that the most advanced hacks one person can think of (Unbound and Crown) aren't even decomp projects, they're just made by incredibly gifted people. In the future the greatest hacks will probably only use decomps though, since I doubt most people find pleasure in suffering through dumps of asm.

 

[Battle Trainer 1823]

Thanks to Hex Maniac, the amount of tools needed to make a binary hack are probably less than five (including Esperance's Cry Editor, Ortz3's Move Animation Creator, some kind of ModExe and Sappy), so modern binary hackers won't have to use a lot of those classic tools and things are much smoother now. While it's true that Decomp has a lot of potential and many good hacks like Inclement Emerald were born to it, you need to understand that in the end, isn't the goal of making a Rom Hack is having fun and giving back to the community?

Have been a Pokémon fan ever since I was like 3-4, and while I can't speak for everyone else, sometimes I think hackers create newer worlds and adventures to make people feel the happiness Pokémon gave them as kids, such as making friendships, learning English if that's not your first language and so on (seriously, playing Pokémon as a kid helped me there). Also won't lie, I have never been good at math/physics/programming, so Hex Maniac and the other tools I mentioned are like a blessing to create a newer world :'3

Look... Also I would like to give you a bit of advice, be careful about what you post, okay? Maybe now you feel like you were justified in doing so, but you're potentially allienating yourself from others and risking the chance of gaining more enemies Deoxys, you said that you've been here for almost two decades so, try not to destroy the legacy you've given to the community, because... Sometimes, once an action is made, or a word is spoken, there's no chance to take them back, and we only realize that once the consequences arrive... Remember, sometimes winning or wanting to win isn't worth the price... u_u

 

[Jaizu]

Look... Also I would like to give you a bit of advice, be careful about what you post, okay? Maybe now you feel like you were justified in doing so, but you're potentially allienating yourself from others and risking the chance of gaining more enemies Deoxys, you said that you've been here for almost two decades so, try not to destroy the legacy you've given to the community, because... Sometimes, once an action is made, or a word is spoken, there's no chance to take them back, and we only realize that once the consequences arrive... Remember, sometimes winning or wanting to win isn't worth the price... u_u

Nobody gives a fuck about your edgy internet threat

 

[AsparagusEdu]

[*]The Emerald battle engine upgrade is currently far inferior to the CFRU's. First off the CFRU's is actually complete, unlike Emerald's which is still missing several features. Second, the AI in the EBEU isn't nearly as good as the CFRU's. And third, most of the attack animations in the EBEU came from an older version of the CFRU. I've since updated many of those animations -- updates which are not reflected in the EBEU. So until the EBEU surpasses the CFRU's battle engine, I wouldn't willingly switch. And you could argue "But, Skeli, unless you quit binary hacking and improving the CFRU how are they supposed to pass it?". I'm one programmer who's barely done anything to it in the last year while they're a team of several. I think they have all the advantage they need.

I have to agree with this. For the longest time, the pokeemerald-expansion (I don't think anyone calls it EBEU, sorry ^^;) has been held back due to the fact that it was separated into 3 separate branches instead of a single one like it currently does. It's only now that our scope has been expanded (heh.) that we can start looking into making decomp more accesible via the expansion, eg. a future feature that will allow users to add new Pokémon with less files to look at (17 files vs the old 28) or able to add item effects regardless of item order.

 

[Skeli]

Do what you like, but you have to acknowledge that you share some responsibility for delaying the transition to decomps.

I would argue that you really should be looking at it as a two-steps forward and one-step back approach. Because the CFRU existed the EBEU was able to import so much from it, that sped along the transition to decomp (since then more hackers saw they could use a functional battle engine on Emerald). Progress isn't made in an instant, and you need to look at the whole picture of how things happened. Just because it may be "delaying" the transition now, it didn't always, and that's what's important.

And you're right, I don't represent the majority of hackers. I'm a niche case and there's no changing what I enjoy. So, just echoing what others have said -- you're looking at this the wrong way. Treat like this making a game. Not all your players are using the decomps like you want them to? Then figure out why. What's making them prefer to take the binary path than the decomp path? The simple answer is "the tools", but what's so great about these tools that the decomps don't have? Newbies definitely aren't told binary hacking is the only way, but they're choosing to go the binary hacking route because of instant gratification. And there's nothing wrong with that. Even when I first started hacking I was just a kid, and the last thing I wanted to do was follow a tutorial on how to get started. It was so easy just to pop a ROM in AdvanceMap and start moving things around.

 

[Hiroshi Sotomura]

Hey all, let's tone the hostilities a bit, please. I'm fine with a constructive discussion that can be had over this matter (and I've made sure to do my part there too!) but I must ask that the discussion is focussed around the subject's points, not any person's delivery of the subject. And avoid pointed comments and name calling, thanks.

 

[ShinyTillDawn]

If HMA is a deciding factor for whether to use binary over decomp, then instead of complaining that it exists, try to do some research on why it is so much more attractive than the decomps. Clearly there is an entry barrier that HMA doesn't have. Focus on lessening that barrier if you would like more people to consider switching.

(Haven has continually addressed entry barriers and use-ability of his tool, which is part of what makes so many people enjoy using it today.)

I still believe that HMA is harder to use than any other binary hacking tool. There are a lot of features that seem obvious & easy-to-find to me, but most ROM hackers wouldn't be able to locate them without help. People confuse Find & Goto, and you have to right−click your tab to make an IPS/UPS patch. Plus, it's a FREAKING hex editor. That alone repels people as if it was broccoli or brussel sprouts. No matter how many bytes in the ROM are formatted to be easier to understand (as well as the table panel existing), people are still going to gravitate towards older tools like G3T, G3HS, and PGE because everything's better laid-out. Haven can't even mimic their UIs without giving up the core functionality of the application — editing bytes in a ROM, so he's forced to make HMA less user-friendly. Either way, both HMA and the decomps have the same flaw you're trying to argue against. From my experience with other software, there is a correlation: User-friendliness is inversely related to the amount of features/"power" given to the user. You need to find the best middleground to this correlation.

This is literally the most elitist thread I have ever read in my time on the internet. Get a ... grip on yourselves lmao.

Who cares what tools people use? As long as it ends being stable (which I've seen with binary engine upgrades like CFRU) and well balanced/fun to play, that's all that should matter to this community. Decomp is great, but posts like these will only make people feel rejected and not want to hack at all.

I don't think it's that elitist. It's just a wake-up call by a really experienced ROM hacker giving us a warning. It's like a quitter telling us not to smoke because of the long-term health consequences. If the OP was a rando who lost an argument in a Discord server, then this would be a different story.
Here's the thing: If someone makes a binary hack with something like AdvMap 1.95 and PGE, then they're likely going to run into more difficulties than if they just used HMA or the decomps. Thus, if the hack becomes widespread, chances are that the audience will be more upset at the hack for its instability. Decomp hacks mitigate a lot of the risks and are more likely to be accepted by the community because of their fewer flaws.

Nobody gives a [bad word] about your edgy internet threat

lol

I can see where Emiya is coming from. That is not a threat whatsoever!

 

[Ryuko72]

Well, I am a person who when I entered this world did not know much, I tried to create my own game in what was recommended to me and in the end I could not do it that way. A friend showed me hexmaniac and well at first I saw it as something that would allow me to stop using Yape, but over time I began to see the facilities it offered and I liked it so much that I would dare to say that today I have not abandoned my dream of creating a game thanks to Hexmaniac.

Now there are people who say the same because of decomp, and that's fine since everyone is FREE to choose what they want, and if people do not choose their methods they should check the root of this instead of blaming people who simply wanted to do something in the simplest way possible.

 

[U.Flame]

It would've been passive aggressive if I only alluded to them and made my references to their work vague in a, "You know who you are," sort of way. I acknowledged the incredible talent and skill of both of them, but that doesn't change the fact that their work is the biggest thing holding back the transition to decomp right now and justifying continuing to binary hack to a large group of people. It seems harsh, but it can't be put any other way. I didn't intend to shame people, only to inform.

If you didn't intend to shame people or come off as aggressive, you should use a softer tone than sentiments like "you're holding everyone back" or "you need to stop doing this and that".

Hard disagree.

If you're looking through the RAM viewer and tinkering, sure, it'll be fun. If you're looking through a ROM and changing bytes with some kind of hypothesis in what your edit would do, go right ahead. Hell, experimentation is exactly how established binary hackers got really started — Coolboyman for example. (And I note that even he saw the benefits of switching away.)

But changing things wily-nilly without recourse may lead to undesirable results and hell, crashes. Bar what a tutorial may show, it's a lot to put on beginners.

That's kinda what I was going for, I'm pretty sure people ususally have some idea in mind when they're experimenting. But my point being they don't have to know what they're doing, and it's okay to go wild and break things, whether you want to try and accomplish a specific goal or just to see what happens when you mess with something in particular. That's why you make backups.

It may be difficult to put yourself in a novice's shoes to understand how confusing version control, packages, blah blah blah are for beginners. Think about a CS 101 class. The students are frankly very dumb in this area and even the most obvious of things are hard to them.

Not ripping on students, just a fact to help my explanation! :)

Decomps are great, however binary hacking is much faster and easier for small-scale hacks like difficulty changes. Like I mentioned earlier, the entry barrier for decomp in these easy scenarios is just too much for most hackers. I say "most" because I believe most are quite basic and only want to change simple things like encounter rates, shiny odds, difficulty, etc.

The barrier for entry really is much smaller for binary than decomp when it comes to novices in particular. I feel like people underestimate that. When I was a kid, all I knew how to use was Advance Map, I thought the likes of XSE was far too complicated for me. If young me couldn't figure out how to put together a script, I doubt young me could have put together a decomp. People who are inexperienced, whether due to age or being out of the loop or whatever, will not likely see even something like Notepad++ let alone github to be as approachable as it is for users who know their way around a computer.

While I think decomp is the better option to try if you have the capability to learn it, I don't see binary as obsolete or something that has to go. And I certainly don't see binary advancements as being a negative to decomps. Binary has its place of being comparatively more user-friendly, anyone being combative about it isn't a very healthy view in my opinion.

 

[Draizehn]

I'm new here, maybe they won't take me into account, but aha.

The best thing would be to let people choose for themselves which platform to work on, which from my point of view is not being done in this post XD.

There are a LOT of people, myself included, who just don't have the chance to switch to Decomp; Either because of laziness, because they don't know how to program (From what I've seen if they need a bit of knowledge: v) or because they don't have the resources to do it. Like my case, I have a 32-bit government laptop.

Let people decide, in the end it's your own problem if you screw up the ROM or not. In the end, cool things can be done at both bases.

That's all, greetings and Merry Christmas, even if it's late.

Bye.​

 

[jiangzhengwenjzw]

Maybe it's time for a more detailed reply. Basically I agree with most of your arguments but, again, I don't like this post. To me, the post is really discussing an open topic in a didatic way, even after your edits.

Stop Binary Hacking; It's Holding Back the Entire Community

The title is already super toxic to me. "Entire community"? Are you serious? There are people who simply don't want to take the time learning git or the codebase or to setup the repos, and they are still part of the community. To them, binary hacking is still the best option and it's not holding back any of them.
I don't know where you got the illusion that you could define the growing direction of the entire community -- this is just ridiculous and not logic.

For those who don't know me, I'm Deokishisu, and I've been trapped in the Pokemon hacking scene for over 18 years. Yes, that is longer than some (perhaps even most) of you have been alive. I've seen every major era of ROM Hacking and have been a part of almost all of it. This means I've seen every transition, every paradigm shift, every fad, every new tool (I was around and hacking before we had Advance Map, as an example), and I've seen every big player come and go. I can tell you that the introduction of a complete, matching decompilation for the Gen 3 games with robust documentation is the biggest and most influential shift in the scene that has ever or will ever happen, but most of you aren't taking advantage of it. It's akin to our community suddenly discovering fire, yet somehow nearly the entire scene still prefers to eat uncooked slop in the dark.

I'm sure many will call me an elitist for spelling it out this plainly. I am not an, "elite," I just have more experience than 99% of you. Your math teacher trying to pass down some of their understanding isn't an "elite" because they are a subject-matter expert and you are not. I am a subject-matter expert when it comes to this hobby. I say that not to make anyone feel bad or lord it over anyone, but to hopefully illustrate why you should consider my words. I am not trying to hide any knowledge from you (in fact, everything I've ever done with the decomps is open source), but to share what I know freely to improve the community and the scene.

You don't have to introduce yourself in such a way. It doesn't matter whether you have been hacking for >18 years or just 18 hours and believe it or not, showing your experience is not going to consolidate your opinions and is completely irrelevant. In such a long post, this is particularly bad. To me, this section is just a waste of time to read. For example, I can say here I'm one of the major contributors to decomp projects. This is true but it's not going to help anything for this reply and just looks like showing off my experience.

Why Should We Abandon Binary Hacking?
...
The work binary tool and patch-makers are doing right now is being tragically wasted, and I hate to see such talent and drive locked into a restrictive and obsolete way of doing things. Ironically, their impressive work is actively harming the scene by delaying the transition to the decomps.

You provide a few advantages of decomp over binary hacking and this is true. But, this is still not strong enough to support your argument "we should abandon binary hacking". It's perfectly fine that some people aware of the benefits of using decomps are still doing binary hacking. Also binary hacking and decomp editing can co-exist just fine, right? To me it's not even transition; it's just a larger proportion of hackers can potentially be using decomps.

Conclusion

It is time to stop binary hacking.

This is the most clueless conclusion I would expect. There are actually some good points in the post but they are definitely not enough to make your conclusion.

We need a concerted effort from the community to divert newcomers away from binary hacking and into the decomps moving forward, and support each other as existing binary hackers transition to the decomps. Binary hacking should be highly discouraged. All the resources needed to transition are out there and available, and I promise you that you will thank me once you get up to speed.

Very didatic wording to me. "Binary hacking should be highly discouraged. " Why would you even say this? People can absolutely do rom hacking in whatever way they want. You can encourage people to use decomp and this is okay, but why would you discourage others? Again, maybe they just don't want to spend time in learning version control and project structure (and C, probably), or just find it fun to work with assembly and code injections (like Skeli). This is completely fine. Using decomp can save time and is easier to maintain for many projects but people don't have to do it in the most efficient way, no? Instead they just need to work in the way that they're most comfortable with; this is just a hobby and they're working for nobody but themselves.

 

[Team Aqua Leader Archie]

I'd join in the conversation but basically all of you have already heard all my arguments, and I can't use Masudamotes here for tone indicators so I'm going to stay out of it. But a +1 to the death of binary hacking.

 

[BluRose]

Spoiler:

Exactly, binary projects are secretly magic effort-vampires sucking the drive out of anyone working towards migrating to decomps. Hundreds of decomp hackers see a binary hack every day and think "I can't contribute to the decomp hacking scene today with this in my way". Timmy making a binary hack in his bedroom has single-handedly kept us from the gen4 decomp. Truly if everyone stopped making their projects how they want we would evolve faster. Indeed, making a binary project is like burning fossil fuels or... *checks notes* "investing in swords" because it uses up the entire community's collective time, resources, and well-being, and isn't just an individual choice that affects nobody else except the project maker and their audience! All our community tax dollars are being wasted by these accursed binary freeloaders stealing MY effort with their SILLY binary hack

gen 4 mention!

nah, gen 4 decomp hasn't happened because of the leaked platinum source essentially being the goal anyway. the nds games have a full filesystem which can already be tracked by git as-is and repacked (not literally 1:1, but functionally 1:1 which is all that matters in making a full hack). people decompiling nds games are doing it entirely with the motive of decompiling the games
i have a git repository that tracks every change made to every file. i can build many of these files based on text files using assembly macros that give meaning to the raw binary and can be similarly acted upon as if i had the source code anyway. gen 5 even has a fully dynamic and relocatable code injection system and the primary script dumpers for gen 5 literally dump to and compile from c-style functions despite the scripting system being very similar.

 

[HustlerJim]

I'd join in the conversation but basically all of you have already heard all my arguments, and I can't use Masudamotes here for tone indicators so I'm going to stay out of it. But a +1 to the death of binary hacking.

pret member says he's going to stay out of it but proceeds to not stay out it because he just can't resist gatekeeping 😂

 

[Ryuko72]

I'd join in the conversation but basically all of you have already heard all my arguments, and I can't use Masudamotes here for tone indicators so I'm going to stay out of it. But a +1 to the death of binary hacking.

Now, with this happening, what do you gain?
Instead of saying that you want Romhacking to be closed, you should help the two to coexist. I think that would add +20 to you, but there is nothing wrong with wanting a +1.