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The U.S Gun Control Thread

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Nah

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    how to play, you mean how they tell it, how many they can do, or how repeated they can be. Because im sure the guidelines doesnt cover each area of it. Think about it though, when we didnt have as much news as we do now, they shootings only actually was told about through family, friends, and people in that area, now the whole world can know of it. Since we got news, government and what not have been getting angry and annoyed and trying to fix it since they see more of it and can see it everywhere. when in fact, its probably been about the same number of shootings per year or so. Its honestly interesting to think about how with the increase of availability of news the more gun control and shoots are taking place. Now dont quote me on it of its probably been the same amount every year (about for a reason, gives it some range since i know it probably did change) but just think about that and read some reports of timelines of shootings. Again, dont quote me on this.
    If you're interested in seeing the number of gun-related homicides in the US over the years, there's a few links you can look at. These were posted on the first page, but that was months and pages ago, so I don't expect people coming to this thread now to have seen them, so here they are again:

    https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....able_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2010-2014.xls
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

    Together the 3 links cover 1993-2017, so that's about a span of 25 years, almost as long as I've been alive.
     
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    how to play, you mean how they tell it, how many they can do, or how repeated they can be. Because im sure the guidelines doesnt cover each area of it. Think about it though, when we didnt have as much news as we do now, they shootings only actually was told about through family, friends, and people in that area, now the whole world can know of it. Since we got news, government and what not have been getting angry and annoyed and trying to fix it since they see more of it and can see it everywhere. when in fact, its probably been about the same number of shootings per year or so. Its honestly interesting to think about how with the increase of availability of news the more gun control and shoots are taking place. Now dont quote me on it of its probably been the same amount every year (about for a reason, gives it some range since i know it probably did change) but just think about that and read some reports of timelines of shootings. Again, dont quote me on this.

    Shootings have been generally declining. See Nah's links. Not talking a general guideline but a specific guide on how to manipulate the public on gun deaths.

    Okay, LDS, I'll address all your concerns in order:



    Yes, the media does that with everything. It's part of why they're the media.
    The media should be reporting the news, not making it. More facts, less emotion.


    I hear that a lot. The point is moot, because you are not allowed to remove any U.S. cities when calculating gun deaths in the U.S.
    Why not? Gun Control groups alter data all the time. Those five cities are heavily gun controlled and run by Democrats. You'd think that those cities would be safer with all that gun control.

    Really? Death by firearms is the 10th leading cause of death in this country, meaning the odds against it happening is 1 in 300. The odds
    of being struck by lightning is roughly 1 in 249,550.
    I should remember not to use hyperbole with you.

    And firearms are not even top 12.

    https://www.healthline.com/health/leading-causes-of-death

    Outside of gang violence, dying by firearm is very low.

    I do not. Don't put words in my mouth. BUT if the government did indeed become the tyrannical force that would make such a militia necessary, the President would indeed order such an act.
    And the military would mostly refuse to follow that order what with most of the likely armed being former soldiers and/or family.

    Oh, and you actually linked to a science fiction author to prove your point?
    He's a subject matter expert.


    First of all, your claim only helps my case. Nobody ever seems able to put together a large enough group.
    No one has really needed to.

    Aside from the 12 who plead guilty. Oh, and there was LaVoy Finicum's death. Kind of throws a wrench into the claim that the government won't fire upon civilians.
    All that proves is that you shouldn't plead guilty for a reduced sentence and that the state cops will shoot people. It wasn't a soldier.

    What about the others I mentioned?

    Roof and McVeigh were murderers, not any kind of resistance. The SLA and Weather underground were left wing terrorist groups. Black Panthers were nominally a civil rights group.

    Uhm, yes.
    :laugh-squinted::laugh-squinted:

    Fine. I will concede that some weapons back then could fire 4 times a minute. However, a modern assault rifle still fires 45 times faster than that.
    Your point? And please don't claim that the founding fathers couldn't predict modern weapons. Many people were seeking to create faster firing weapons and had early version of multi fire weapons.
     
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    Maedar

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    The media should be reporting the news, not making it. More facts, less emotion.

    They ARE reporting it. Are you going to get on the "fake news" bandwagon now?

    Why not? Gun Control groups do it all the time. Those five cities are heavily gun controlled and run by Democrats. You'd think that those cities would be safer with all that gun control.

    ???

    When calculating the deaths in America caused by gun violence, you have to include ALL of America.

    And as for "cities controlled by Democrats", maybe that's why Democrats support gun control.

    No one has really needed to.

    I see. You're admitting now then, that in over 200 years, the intent of the 2nd Amendment has never been necessary? So why do you insist it is still needed?

    e's a subject matter expert.

    Never heard of him, and I prefer experts with actual credentials in the field. I wouldn't hire a plumber to tile the roof, and I don't seek a science fiction author's advice on firearms.

    And the military would mostly refuse to follow that order what with most of the likely armed being former soldiers and/or family.

    You sure? The defense of the Nuremberg defendants was "I was just following orders".

    I should remember not to use hyperbole with you.

    People are dying in mass shootings, the time for humor is long past.

    Roof and McVeigh were murderers, not any kind of resistance. The SLA and Weather underground were left wing terrorist groups. Black Panthers were nominally a civil rights group.

    Do more research on them. McVeigh was trying to spark a revolution, Roof was trying to start a racial war. Of course, anyone with any common sense would have realized that such plans would have failed had they thought about them for a minute or two, but then such people lack any sense.

    All that proves is that you shouldn't plead guilty for a reduced sentence and that the state cops will shoot people. It wasn't a soldier.

    Why does THAT make a difference? It could have been a civilian.

    Your point? And please don't claim that the founding fathers couldn't predict modern weapons. [/quoted]

    Predict?? They couldn't have even conceived them.

    Many parts of the Constitution are reflections of outdated and antiquated customs. To give one example, the fact we have elections on Tuesday was because polling stations were always in towns, and everyone needed two days after going to church to make the trip on foot. You'd think someone would realize that even if everyone was still so concerned about church that the invention of automobiles eliminated that problem, but the workday made voting a hassle. Common sense would place Election Day on Saturday. There are more examples, but I won't get into them here.
     
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    They ARE reporting it. Are you going to get on the "fake news" bandwagon now?
    Again its about HOW they report it. Unless you are suicidal, in a gang or dealing drugs, your likelihood of dying by gun is extremely low.
    I've been told that the decimals actually off by two zeroes. Its even less than in the info-graphic.
    https://imgur.com/gallery/0fdcJ0S

    ???

    When calculating the deaths in America caused by gun violence, you have to include ALL of America.
    Suicides have a different cause than "gun violence." Want to reduce those numbers see this link. https://medium.com/handwaving-freak...n-gun-deaths-heres-a-better-case-1429e7ad2f25


    And as for "cities controlled by Democrats", maybe that's why Democrats support gun control.
    They fail in their cities and want to make everyone else suffer?



    I see. You're admitting now then, that in over 200 years, the intent of the 2nd Amendment has never been necessary? So why do you insist it is still needed?
    Didn't you just say not to put words in mouths? And I was wrong. There have been groups that needed weapons against crooked gov't.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)

    Don't know why I forgot that one. There are other cases. Some bigger, some smaller.

    I've never used my fire extinguisher. Should I get rid of it? Never needed to call the fire department. Should they be disbanded?

    Never heard of him, and I prefer experts with actual credentials in the field. I wouldn't hire a plumber to tile the roof, and I don't seek a science fiction author's advice on firearms.
    Should check his BIO. In-depth firearm knowledge from owning a gun store and training people on said usage of firearms. Has been used by the media for interviews on guns. Out of mild curiosity, what "credentials" do you prefer?



    You sure? The defense of the Nuremberg defendants was "I was just following orders".
    Yeah, the US trains their soldiers that unlawful commands must not be followed.
    Nice try though.

    https://www.thebalancecareers.com/military-orders-3332819


    People are dying in mass shootings, the time for humor is long past.
    Wasn't the humor aspect.



    Do more research on them. McVeigh was trying to spark a revolution, Roof was trying to start a racial war. Of course, anyone with any common sense would have realized that such plans would have failed had they thought about them for a minute or two, but then such people lack any sense.
    Both murderers who wanted an illegal change in things.


    Why does THAT make a difference? It could have been a civilian.

    Because it wasn't the military.
    Predict?? They couldn't have even conceived them.
    Says you. Anyone that can make puckle guns and try for multshot pistols would want modern rifles.
    Your argument could easily be used on other Rights. Who could predict computers?

    Many parts of the Constitution are reflections of outdated and antiquated customs. To give one example, the fact we have elections on Tuesday was because polling stations were always in towns, and everyone needed two days after going to church to make the trip on foot. You'd think someone would realize that even if everyone was still so concerned about church that the invention of automobiles eliminated that problem, but the workday made voting a hassle. Common sense would place Election Day on Saturday. There are more examples, but I won't get into them here.

    And a lot of people don't have child care on saturdays. Election days still work as implemented.
     
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    Maedar

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    Strange that the Battle of Athens is always the example and always the only example folks bring up.

    Says you. Anyone that can make puckle guns and try for multshot pistols would want modern rifles.
    Your argument could easily be used on other Rights. Who could predict computers?

    My opinion is, that's BS.

    Try using an abacus and see if you can do it as fast or efficiently as someone using a calculator.

    Both are math tools, but a calculator does math faster.

    A musket and a modern assault rifle are tools designed to kill, and the second one KILLS PEOPLE MORE EFFICIENTLY AND FASTER.

    That's the problem I have with gun control debates. It's opponents seem to show little regard for human life, measuring them with numbers and statistics, completely forgetting that parents who lose children to psychotic killers don't see their murdered loved ones as statistics.
     
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    Strange that the Battle of Athens is always the example and always the only example folks bring up.
    . And your point is? It's relatively recent. It's a clear case of a corrupt local govt being taken down by armed people who then restored the rule of law.
    My opinion is, that's BS.

    Try using an abacus and see if you can do it as fast or efficiently as someone using a calculator.

    Both are math tools, but a calculator does math faster.
    . Try sending child porn with an abacus. Try sending state secrets with a calculator. A computer does a lot more than than just crunch numbers. How many people die because someone uses a computer to upload bad medical advice or "free cancer cure" crap to the net?
    A musket and a modern assault rifle are tools designed to kill, and the second one KILLS PEOPLE MORE EFFICIENTLY AND FASTER.
    . So? Founding Fathers were quite clear where they stood on civilian gun ownership. Firearm deaths by handgun are larger than by rifle.

    Edit: re your last section. I keep pointing out how many lives are saved by guns in these little arguments yet you don't want to talk about them.
     
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    Strange that the Battle of Athens is always the example and always the only example folks bring up.

    So what is the argument here? Are you in agreement that it was a situation in which guns were needed to take down a tyrannical power?

    My opinion is, that's BS.

    Try using an abacus and see if you can do it as fast or efficiently as someone using a calculator.

    Both are math tools, but a calculator does math faster.

    A musket and a modern assault rifle are tools designed to kill, and the second one KILLS PEOPLE MORE EFFICIENTLY AND FASTER.

    That's the problem I have with gun control debates. It's opponents seem to show little regard for human life, measuring them with numbers and statistics, completely forgetting that parents who lose children to psychotic killers don't see their murdered loved ones as statistics.

    Actually for some people especially in Japan, using the abacus can be faster than a calculator, it all depends on the user and how fast and efficent they are. Just as a musket can be far deadlier than a modern day assault rifle based on the damage the bullet causes.

    https://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~elf/abacus/abacus-contest.html
    https://www.wired.com/2009/11/1112abacus-beats-calculator/amp

    Also I am still waiting for an answer on how Iraq is not an example of successful gueilla warfare against the modern day US military by a civilian population using firearms and IEDs.
     

    FlameChrome

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    Even I know that the people who created the things of our freedom rights, We have right to bare arms, is actually not what they meant it to be. But groups like the national gun association altered what we know this amendment (forgive my spelling) means.

    Also two days after church to get there after church? How would you explain them going back and forth to school or even their jobs everyday?

    At this point i feel like you are just saying things just to speak, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but gosh you seem to be continuing arguments that are not worth it. Thats just me.
     
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    Even I know that the people who created the things of our freedom rights, We have right to bare arms, is actually not what they meant it to be. But groups like the national gun association altered what we know this amendment (forgive my spelling) means.

    Also two days after church to get there after church? How would you explain them going back and forth to school or even their jobs everyday?

    At this point i feel like you are just saying things just to speak, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but gosh you seem to be continuing arguments that are not worth it. Thats just me.

    Can you expand on this, how did the NRA alter the amendment from it's original intent.
     

    Maedar

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    LDS, let me make my case here plain and simple.

    Nobody wants to take your guns, certainly not me. Liberal politicians don't want that. They just want sane and reasonable gun laws.

    I have a carry permit. I'm a security guard. Know what I had to do to qualify?

    First there was the $50 registration fee for the class I had to take, which lasted three weeks. It included ethics courses, firearm safety courses, training seminars, and an extensive written test. They did a full background check and both a medical and psychiatric evaluation. (That first one included drug testing.)

    After all that, I was legally an armed guard, but I have to take an annual exam renewal exam.

    Know what police officers have to do to get it? Don't ask.

    it often scares me then, how easy it is for civilians to get it. Little but a three-day wait. We just want to close the loopholes and use a little common sense to determine who should NOT have access to them.

    Edit: "Child porn"??

    So what is the argument here? Are you in agreement that it was a situation in which guns were needed to take down a tyrannical power?

    No.

    Do you see any armed militia in North Carolina right now?
     
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    That video while giving an amusing run down of the NRA does not explain what exactly the NRA did to alter the second amendment. According to the video DC vs Heller had the Supreme Corut reaffirm the Second Amendment gave individuals the right to bare arms. However anyone who looks at the writings of the founding fathers and their intent would know that was the purpose of the second amendment.

    No.

    Do you see any armed militia in North Carolina right now?

    The people are in essence an armed militia, as intended by the founding fathers.
     
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    FlameChrome

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    That video while giving an amusing run down of the NRA does not explain what exactly the NRA did to alter the second amendment. According to the video DC vs Heller had the Supreme Corut reaffirm the Second Amendment gave individuals the right to bare arms. However anyone who looks at the writings of the founding fathers and their intent would know that was the purpose of the second amendment.

    you know, im about done responding to you. Because all you do is trying to sound smart when your explinations keep getting put down and when me and maedar and anyone else is right. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but when it ends up being a pointless argument that one side is already winning and would be very hard for the other to come back up, would be pointless. But do as you wish.

    Edit: Correction, you keep bringing up the same stuff up over and over when we clearly said what was wrong with it to begin with
     
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    you know, im about done responding to you. Because all you do is trying to sound smart when your explinations keep getting put down and when me and maedar and anyone else is right. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but when it ends up being a pointless argument that one side is already winning and would be very hard for the other to come back up, would be pointless. But do as you wish.

    Edit: Correction, you keep bringing up the same stuff up over and over when we clearly said what was wrong with it to begin with

    If you want to quit that is fine, I would suggest reading DC vs Heller or a cliff notes version to see why the Second Amendment was not changed.

    (a) The Amendment's prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause's text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.

    (b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court's interpretation of the operative clause. The "militia" comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens' militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens' militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

    (c) The Court's interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment . Pp. 28–30.

    (d) The Second Amendment 's drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32.

    (e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court's conclusion. Pp. 32–47.

    (f) None of the Court's precedents forecloses the Court's interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html
     
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    Adam was really off the mark on that one.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEWJIHuD1uI&t=338s

    LDS, let me make my case here plain and simple.

    Nobody wants to take your guns, certainly not me. Liberal politicians don't want that. They just want sane and reasonable gun laws.
    We already have sane and reasonable gun laws. And gun control groups do want to take guns away. They've been caught saying that for decades! They keep adding guns to their ban list.

    I have a carry permit. I'm a security guard. Know what I had to do to qualify?

    First there was the $50 registration fee for the class I had to take, which lasted three weeks. It included ethics courses, firearm safety courses, training seminars, and an extensive written test. They did a full background check and both a medical and psychiatric evaluation. (That first one included drug testing.)

    After all that, I was legally an armed guard, but I have to take an annual exam renewal exam.

    Know what police officers have to do to get it? Don't ask.
    . I don't care what requirements your job put on you to work there as an armed security guard. There's a whole legal issue involved in employees that don't apply to anybody else. Do you think that the training news broadcasters get has anything to do with the 1st?

    it often scares me then, how easy it is for civilians to get it. Little but a three-day wait. We just want to close the loopholes and use a little common sense to determine who should NOT have access to them.
    Hmm. So you want a litmus test for the civilians to carry guns. Must make sure they agree to the party terms first, yes? There is no freaking loophole.

    "Child porn"??
    . Horrible thing made easier to share by computers. Ruins lives.

    you know, im about done responding to you. Because all you do is trying to sound smart when your explinations keep getting put down and when me and maedar and anyone else is right. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but when it ends up being a pointless argument that one side is already winning and would be very hard for the other to come back up, would be pointless. But do as you wish.

    Edit: Correction, you keep bringing up the same stuff up over and over when we clearly said what was wrong with it to begin with
    . You aren't putting anything down. You just disagree with it.
    Winning? I do agree that one side is "winning." Its obviously not going to be the side you think is winning.

    And I am truly done responding to you.

    I unblocked you thinking you might have changed. Seems I was wrong.
    . Post and run debating?

    Even the CDC says that guns are used more often defensively than illegally and people suffer less injuries when using a gun in self defense that when using anything else.
     

    FlameChrome

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    Let me guess, you disagree with us because you are friends with English? Also, we were finished with this conversation then you had to continue it, why might I ask did you have to do that?
     
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    Let me guess, you disagree with us because you are friends with English? Also, we were finished with this conversation then you had to continue it, why might I ask did you have to do that?

    No, I disagree with what little you've posted because I've done my own research. I disagree with Maeder because I think he's wrong on pretty much all of it. Do you see the links I post backing up my side of the debate? English has his own opinion that I partially agree with.

    I replied to you because it's a debate forum. If you don't wish to continue, you can simply stop replying.
     

    FlameChrome

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    No, I disagree with what little you've posted because I've done my own research. I disagree with Maeder because I think he's wrong on pretty much all of it. Do you see the links I post backing up my side of the debate? English has his own opinion that I partially agree with.

    I replied to you because it's a debate forum. If you don't wish to continue, you can simply stop replying.

    ok seriously? saying i can stop replying, EVEN THOUGH i already said I was done then you quote my post, of course ima reply. So basically what you said to everyone, think before you post.
     
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    FC, you're amusing. I posted a reply to your video link and from all appearances, your last reply about being "about done responding" appeared to be to English. Now I haven't quoted your post so you aren't obligated to respond.

    Feel free to come back and debate anytime.
     
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