Feminism

[Kanzler]

Wait WHAT. If your first response to a rape statistic (which you can't just ignore because it's "outrageous") is how it affects society's view of men then I am honest to goodness lost for words.

I think it's good to have a healthy dose of scepticism when looking at the world. Statistics have to be placed in context - it's only as useful as the methods used to obtain it. I, for one, can't account for the 1-in-4 figure in my own experience, and I doubt I'm the only one.

Also women being paid less. Let me quote from wiki:

In 2010 the median income of FTYR workers was $42,800 for men, compared to $34,700 for women. The female-to-male earnings ratio was 0.81, slightly higher than the 2008 ratio.

In other words, the average income of full-time female workers is less than the average of male workers by 19%. How much of this can we attribute to discrimination though? Let's all agree that it's a highly aggregated statistic. It doesn't take into account the kinds of jobs men and women take, it doesn't take into account the hours worked, it doesn't take into account how these hours are worked (people who work consecutive hours vs. flexible hours tend to be paid more). How much of that difference can be attributed to discrimination? There is no doubt that men and women are unequal; in this particular discussion, there are reasonable explanations as to why women would be paid less for all three factors given (women on average not pursuing higher-paying careers - twocows referred to this, women on average working less hours due to looking after children, and women preferring more flexible hours for children, for example). We should not conflate inequality with injustice. Is it /wrong/ that women are paid less than men the median income of full-time, year-round women workers is 81% of those of male workers? Not if the factors explaining the disparity don't involve discrimination. Yes, discrimination exists because sexism is a thing, but there is more less to that number than meets the eye.

The graph here: https://money.usnews.com/money/blog.../31/young-women-closing-in-on-gender-wage-gap

... indicates that for young women, the pay gap is less than 10% (again, statistic is highly aggregated). Who knows if it is only a sign of our times and the gap will minimize in the future, or if entrenched norms will lead to the pay gap rising as these women's careers mature.

My main idea is that we freak out about these things a lot more than we should be because statistics are used scarcely and inaccurately. It's not /that/ big of a deal. Also, nothing upsets me more than over-stated and under-supported arguments. Most talk about feminism that I've been a part of is overly sensationalized, imo. Not sure if it's just a product of our youth or our times but whatever.

P.S. Why don't we talk about something interesting, like whether social norms (in the context of feminism) are just or not? What makes inequality between men and women right/non-issue/tolerable? Is inequality between men and women ever justifiable? I think such a discussion is open-ended and would not involve the use of statistics (thankfully).

 

[Star-Lord]

I think it's good to have a healthy dose of scepticism when looking at the world. Statistics have to be placed in context - it's only as useful as the methods used to obtain it. I, for one, can't account for the 1-in-4 figure in my own experience, and I doubt I'm the only one.

I've always had questions about the stat myself, on whether or not the term "rape" was used or the term "sexual assault" the latter being absolutely more believable because of our legal definition of assault (at least in Canada a level 1 assault is as easy as blocking someone from leaving. Apply the three categories of assault sexually.) That's my food for thought.

All in all though if your first reaction on seeing that though is to think about men and not the fact so many women are getting sexually assaulted then you do need to re prioritize. (Not you obviously since you never said that but :V)

 

[twocows]

This guy brings up some interesting points on the topic. Any thoughts?

 

[Kanzler]

For sure (it's interesting). Diminishing marginal returns on gender balancing investments as a closer balance is achieved. I don't think pregnancy and motherhood are going away any time soon. In the realm of work women would be permanently disadvantaged (if you want to phrase it that way), but I don't think that's intolerable.