What kind of Ash do you want?

[Famon]

Yeah, and at least with Original Ash, he had the excuse of it being his first time as a trainer, BW Ash doesn't have that kind of excuse. It's actually a bit insulting to the audience, really. About as insulting as Gaston and LeFou loudly boasting enough details about their plan to blackmail Belle into marrying the former in a public area for them to not only deduce what they're planning to do, but also display the amoral implications of said plan in full view, yet are cheered on in Beauty and the Beast.

Honestly, when they "rebooted" BW, they really should have done it the right way by actually getting rid of Ash, Pikachu, and pretty much everyone connected to the prior series and start completely fresh.

As far as the topic, we need Ash to actually be depicted as a skilled, seasoned trainer, especially after what happened in BW. Maybe retain some childish traits, but keep the seasoned stuff to not make him look like an absolute idiot.

Actually doing something like that doesn't make Ash stupid .
It just make him look irrational and childish.
Let be honest , Most genius in the world are Irrational & Childish .
Because they see the world differently then other.
Rational people are idiot ! If everyone was Rational then we still be at stone-age . It because some irrational people did irrational stuff , We able to progress.
Also , Most irrational stuff a genius does , Has a smart deep meaning behind it ! BW Ash just plain stupid .
Currently , Ash's personality is just too average.
This type of personality work for Harem Visual Novel .
Suppose-
Ash & Co met a girl with graceful battling style that said to be Flawless & Perfect ! Everybody think her battling style is perfect accept Ash who call her ''Boring''.
She hear this and challenge Ash to an Battle . However Ash make a fatal mistake that nearly that cause him that .The girl keep truanting him.
Finally , Ash tell her that he still think her battling style is boring because its too flawless & Perfect . She doesn't take Risk and always try to avoid it.
The He reveal he made that ''Fatal Mistake'' on purpose.
That girl figure out that Ash already won that battle When he took a risk that nearly cause him the battle.
Later , She show up at the end of episode vowing that she will someday beat Ash and prove her style to be perfect.
Ash Smiles & simple say ''Any time , Any Where , I will just beat you down !

Why can't Ash actually be like that ? The only advise he ever gave is ''Believe in Pokemon , Believe in Pokemon'' .

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Actually doing something like that doesn't make Ash stupid .
It just make him look irrational and childish.
Let be honest , Most genius in the world are Irrational & Childish .
Because they see the world differently then other.
Rational people are idiot ! If everyone was Rational then we still be at stone-age . It because some irrational people did irrational stuff , We able to progress.
Also , Most irrational stuff a genius does , Has a smart deep meaning behind it ! BW Ash just plain stupid .
Currently , Ash's personality is just too average.
This type of personality work for Harem Visual Novel .
Suppose-
Ash & Co met a girl with graceful battling style that said to be Flawless & Perfect ! Everybody think her battling style is perfect accept Ash who call her ''Boring''.
She hear this and challenge Ash to an Battle . However Ash make a fatal mistake that nearly that cause him that .The girl keep truanting him.
Finally , Ash tell her that he still think her battling style is boring because its too flawless & Perfect . She doesn't take Risk and always try to avoid it.
The He reveal he made that ''Fatal Mistake'' on purpose.
That girl figure out that Ash already won that battle When he took a risk that nearly cause him the battle.
Later , She show up at the end of episode vowing that she will someday beat Ash and prove her style to be perfect.
Ash Smiles & simple say ''Any time , Any Where , I will just beat you down !

Why can't Ash actually be like that ? The only advise he ever gave is ''Believe in Pokemon , Believe in Pokemon'' .

The "absolute idiot" comment was not in reference to your idea, but rather his behavior in BW (which you yourself even decried).

 

[Famon]

The "absolute idiot" comment was not in reference to your idea, but rather his behavior in BW (which you yourself even decried).

Let be honest ,There's noway BW Ash & XY Ash will act like this-

BW & XY Ash is just so nice & Polite and rational.
It more like Current Ash based on ''Good Boy'' rather then actual Kids.
No wonder Kids hated it .
I miss those Day Where Ash acted like this So Misty had to straighten him up.

 

[Satoshi Ookami]

Because he doesn't have reason to throw a tantrum.
Reality isn't a crappy game for Ash.

 

[Famon]

Because he doesn't have reason to throw a tantrum.
Reality isn't a crappy game for Ash.

Well , There he can throw a tanturm for other reason .
Its not has to be about a Game.

 

[Aquacorde]

I don't think we need to see Ash getting so bent out of shape about things. From Kanto onward, they gave him the impression of growing up gradually. They reset him in BW, but obviously realized that was a terrible mistake and are letting him mature again in XY. As a more mature character- he's the most experienced traveller of the current group, and he and Clemont's relative strengths as trainers is debatable- he doesn't need to have a fit about things. He can show a wide array of emotion, sure, but throwing a tantrum certainly doesn't fit his current portrayed maturity.

 

[Lizardo]

I've never really seen Satoshi as being that mature, and certainly not in XY. Even if he's not as much an ignorant novice as BW often portrayed him to be, and even if he's not quite as bad as in the earliest episodes of the OS, he's still got a very childish quality to him that's remained rather consistent throughout each series. And as far as his current group goes, I'd say that Citron and Serena are easily more mature characters than he is.

That's why Satoshi in Diamond & Pearl is the closest the anime franchise ever got to having my ideal version of the character. While he was often still childish and could still be very dumb, he was also put into positions where he would have to demonstrate some maturity and/or intelligence in order to move ahead. It was also the one series I can remember where he actually took the time to think back to his experiences in Sinnoh and try and apply some of what he learned to future battles (his battle with Kurotsugu is one of my favorite Satoshi moments for that alone), which showed that he actually was learning and growing.

A well-rounded version of Satoshi that can balance all the aspects of his personality, having him frequently demonstrate skill as a trainer in victory and defeat, and still have him developing in some way is the kind of Satoshi I want.

 

[curiousnathan]

I want an Ash that is smart.
I want an Ash that battles strategically.
I want an Ash that does not forget his experience as a potentially powerful trainer every new region.
I want a confident Ash.
I want a powerful, focused, cool Ash.

I want a better Ash.

 

[rom hunter]

I would like Ash to move from rash to a more mature and calm headed person. It actually happens in real life. As your experience grows, patience comes automatically to you. Ash is shown taking the decision instinctively rather than strategically. There are two options- Ash remains what he is- rash -forever or become a changed person with time. By the Best Wishes series he should have been even more mature and intelligent than Gary. He is good at battling but rarely makes a strategy for a battle beforehand. Sometimes, guys like Paul and Gary seem more real than Ash. What I expected was Ash growing a lot tougher, wiser, calm, mature and exactly opposite of what he is originally and the challenges he faces should be more difficult to match his maturity.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

I would like Ash to move from rash to a more mature and calm headed person. It actually happens in real life. As your experience grows, patience comes automatically to you. Ash is shown taking the decision instinctively rather than strategically. There are two options- Ash remains what he is- rash -forever or become a changed person with time. By the Best Wishes series he should have been even more mature and intelligent than Gary. He is good at battling but rarely makes a strategy for a battle beforehand. Sometimes, guys like Paul and Gary seem more real than Ash. What I expected was Ash growing a lot tougher, wiser, calm, mature and exactly opposite of what he is originally and the challenges he faces should be more difficult to match his maturity.

Yeah, I agree. In fact, its times like this that I often wonder, if they're not even going to bother having him go through the proper development, what's the point of even keeping him as a character? If you are going to use him for who knows how long as the main character, have him lose in leagues, and give him steady increases in rank (exempting AG and BW, of course), at least actually give him development to indicate he has matured. Paul may be a big jerk and an abusive trainer, but at least he actually does seem to know what he's doing, and even Gary at least actually shows he knows what he's doing as well, and he's closer to Ash in the sense that unlike Paul, he does at least care about his Pokémon. Even Goku at least managed to mature significantly. Ash doesn't seem to have significant maturity. BW makes it even worse by noticeably regressing to the extent that even Original Series Ash seemed much smarter, and that might actually result in the death of the show in the near future. After all, Season 3 of Heroes basically killed off interest in the show, and Season 4 basically acted as the final nail, or at least was not able to do much to save the show, even cancelling a proper finale. There is a "Rebirth" coming out, but I'm not sure about that.

 

[Cerberus87]

Am I the only one who thinks they should've been bold and changed protagonists according to the seasons? It worked for PokéSpe, I don't see why it couldn't have worked for the show. Instead, Ash's development is a mess. With everything he's seen, he should already be a top trainer and avoid silly mistakes.

 

[alisaie]

^ That would work if, you know, he would age and he wasn't still ten. But, as much as a lot of people hate it, he still is. He's still a kid. He's still at that age where you're gonna forget things, make easy and silly mistakes, and yes even have a rollarcoaster of a development. But for how long he's been around he's been fairly consistent in his key points and I really don't think they need to change that. And some of these points that you guys say he needs he does have. Does he have these all the time? no. But that's okay because I feel like it just makes things more realistic. Are you cool, mature, and ready to strategically take on everything all the time? I doubt it. Do you sometimes make simple mistakes? I'm pretty sure you do. I know I do.

I've already stated what I want in Ash in my last post on the first page and I still stand by that. ♥

 

[Elaitenstile]

I want Ash to visibly show that he is immortal and that he hits his head somehow and forgets all about strategy in Pokémon (very conveniently for the developers). Either that, or just make more mistakes in general, and not absorb much because the amount of experience him and his Pikachu has by now is just overwhelmingly undermined when he starts over.

 

[rom hunter]

I want Ash to visibly show that he is immortal and that he hits his head somehow and forgets all about strategy in Pokémon (very conveniently for the developers). Either that, or just make more mistakes in general, and not absorb much because the amount of experience him and his Pikachu has by now is just overwhelmingly undermined when he starts over.

Hey but thats what exactly they tried to do in BW and everyone is upset about it. I, on other hand, feel that trainer's maturity and experience doesn't guarantee a win when you start all over again with new inexperienced pokemon team. Remember, Ash may be experienced but his pokemon need not be so. Also, Pikachu should remain only an anti-Team Rocket weapon and Ash should avoid using it in gym battles. But what I really expect from the developers is to focus on the villains-the Team Plasma-and gym & rest be considered as just an additional stuff. Pokemon developers should wake up from the fact that anime need not to be exactly based on games. In fact where they should follow the games ditto(moves, their effects, abilities, type advantages & disadvantages etc.), they have failed. Dragon Ball series is a great example to show that a show can be based on a single character and still be entertaining till the end.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Hey but thats what exactly they tried to do in BW and everyone is upset about it. I, on other hand, feel that trainer's maturity and experience doesn't guarantee a win when you start all over again with new inexperienced pokemon team. Remember, Ash may be experienced but his pokemon need not be so. Also, Pikachu should remain only an anti-Team Rocket weapon and Ash should avoid using it in gym battles. But what I really expect from the developers is to focus on the villains-the Team Plasma-and gym & rest be considered as just an additional stuff. Pokemon developers should wake up from the fact that anime need not to be exactly based on games. In fact where they should follow the games ditto(moves, their effects, abilities, type advantages & disadvantages etc.), they have failed. Dragon Ball series is a great example to show that a show can be based on a single character and still be entertaining till the end.

Yeah, I agree, and in fact his inexperienced Pokémon beating gym leaders very easily (who I must remind you are supposed to be experts) really makes them look bad (that's one of the main reasons I hated Advanced Generation, especially when it came at a time where they forced Misty to run the gym, which made their wimpification of all GLs except for Brawley [he's the only Gym Leader I can think of during that region that Ash actually had to face twice] especially bad and tasteless). I mean, JJM has already been universally viewed as weak and pathetic ever since their Pokémon got beaten by a Caterpie (one that was not only inexperienced especially compared to their Ekans and Koffing, not to mention Meowth, but thanks to Ash's stupidity in having it fight a Pidgeotto that he later captured, it was barely even alive, and hadn't had much time to actually recover thanks to Team Rocket's ambush), so how would anyone take gym leaders seriously when they are being beaten by rookies effortlessly? At least Kanto actually made the gym leaders seem difficult, and even Johto still had most gym leaders mostly being beaten by vets until all of Ash's original team left and Ash stuck with Johto Pokémon. Hoenn and Sinnoh didn't. I'm not sure whether to even count BW since it seemed more like Ash's stupidity than an actual sense that the gym leaders were actually difficult.

I think one of the great things about Kanto and, heck, even Johto is precisely the fact that they had minimal influence from the games, it actually seemed like its own thing and even using some fairly logical weaknesses. Since AG, it seemed like they were more concerned with making it more like the games to an unnecessary degree.

 

[Lizardo]

Yeah, I agree, and in fact his inexperienced Pokémon beating gym leaders very easily (who I must remind you are supposed to be experts) really makes them look bad (that's one of the main reasons I hated Advanced Generation, especially when it came at a time where they forced Misty to run the gym, which made their wimpification of all GLs except for Brawley [he's the only Gym Leader I can think of during that region that Ash actually had to face twice] especially bad and tasteless).

The point of Gym Leaders are to be an obstacle for Satoshi and his Pokémon to overcome. It's how the anime shows their growth throughout the region. If anything, I think it was worse in those early Kanto episodes where Satoshi would get badges without defeating the Gym Leader. It's kind of difficult to buy that your protagonist is growing stronger when they don't actually overcome the obstacles meant to show that.

Getting back to the thread, another thing I would like to see in my ideal version of Satoshi would be a greater element of vulnerability. I get that it's a part of his characterization that he's optimistic and confident, and I do like that about him. But at the same time, while the anime never fails to show Satoshi struggling, it would add a much-needed extra dimension to the character by letting the audience see more of that struggle get to him and how he deals with it.

Granted, this has happened a few times, and it tends works really well. I loved how DP133 devoted half its time to show Satoshi depressed over the loss to Shinji. I liked how he dealt with his battle with Touki in AG, how his ego and desire to win resulted in his pushing Kimori so hard, and his reaction to the aftermath of it all. And I had initially thought XY would be a nice return to form for the character due in part to how he was visibly depressed over losing to Viola. Things like that make the inevitable moments where Satoshi picks himself back up and refocuses on achieving his objective feel that much more deserved, and they go a long way towards making him feel like a real character one can empathize with.

This is a character who's very competitive and who loves to win. It only makes sense that it would bother him when he comes up against someone standing in his way, like a rival or a particularly strong Gym Leader, who he can't seem to defeat. This is why Satoshi is at his best when confronted with rivals like Shigeru or Shinji, strong Gym Leaders like Touki or Pyramid King Jindai, or a problematic Pokémon like Lizardon. Because it's in those moments when we see a more vulnerable, unconfident side to Satoshi that's a refreshing change of pace from the usual. My ideal Satoshi would have more of this than he currently does in the anime.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

The point of Gym Leaders are to be an obstacle for Satoshi and his Pokémon to overcome. It's how the anime shows their growth throughout the region. If anything, I think it was worse in those early Kanto episodes where Satoshi would get badges without defeating the Gym Leader. It's kind of difficult to buy that your protagonist is growing stronger when they don't actually overcome the obstacles meant to show that.

Getting back to the thread, another thing I would like to see in my ideal version of Satoshi would be a greater element of vulnerability. I get that it's a part of his characterization that he's optimistic and confident, and I do like that about him. But at the same time, while the anime never fails to show Satoshi struggling, it would add a much-needed extra dimension to the character by letting the audience see more of that struggle get to him and how he deals with it.

Granted, this has happened a few times, and it tends works really well. I loved how DP133 devoted half its time to show Satoshi depressed over the loss to Shinji. I liked how he dealt with his battle with Touki in AG, how his ego and desire to win resulted in his pushing Kimori so hard, and his reaction to the aftermath of it all. And I had initially thought XY would be a nice return to form for the character due in part to how he was visibly depressed over losing to Viola. Things like that make the inevitable moments where Satoshi picks himself back up and refocuses on achieving his objective feel that much more deserved, and they go a long way towards making him feel like a real character one can empathize with.

This is a character who's very competitive and who loves to win. It only makes sense that it would bother him when he comes up against someone standing in his way, like a rival or a particularly strong Gym Leader, who he can't seem to defeat. This is why Satoshi is at his best when confronted with rivals like Shigeru or Shinji, strong Gym Leaders like Touki or Pyramid King Jindai, or a problematic Pokémon like Lizardon. Because it's in those moments when we see a more vulnerable, unconfident side to Satoshi that's a refreshing change of pace from the usual. My ideal Satoshi would have more of this than he currently does in the anime.

Yeah, they were supposed to be an obstacle to overcome, that's why I have a lot of problems with how AG and to some extent DP handled it by effectively having them beat most of them as if they were tissue paper despite being completely inexperienced. They should have made each gym be done at least twice regarding Ash's Hoenn team (maybe only once if Pikachu is involved, since his beating Gym Leaders wouldn't lessen their skill as he's the only consistent roster in Ash's various regional teams), maybe have the first time be hopeless (similar to Lt. Surge's battle, one of the few battles where Ash actually won his badge during the Kanto saga), in order to make their reputation as powerful trainers actually seem applicable. Remember, Ash himself may be experienced, but that does not mean his team is especially when he "starts fresh" every series since AG. Kanto may have had its flaws, including the giving of badges effectively (although Pewter Gym at least had a point due to Ash not finishing off Brock with an unfair advantage, something that under league rules probably would have disqualified Ash), but at least the gym leaders were actually depicted as an actual threat to Ash's team (Koga, Erika, Misty, and technically Team Rocket are probably the only instances where Ash DIDN'T end up losing the first time around, and of these, only Koga and Team Rocket [who were surprisingly skilled during this time even coming close to victory despite their usual status as wimps, and with minimum cheating, no less] were ones he actually won against. If we count interruptions as losses, then the only Gym Leaders Ash actually managed to beat in one battle are Team Rocket during their stint as the Viridian Gym Leader). AG didn't give any sense of this other than possibly Brawley, and while DP did slightly better, it still seems to come short in regards to some aspects, especially the rookie team doing a bit too well against seasoned trainers.

And I agree with your assessment, and in fact that's actually one of my complaints about how they handled gym leaders in the Anime, at least since AG. I'm willing to tolerate seeing Ash have to face the Gym Leader twice as long as it at least demonstrates that, at least compared to Ash's rookie team, they are real challenges, rather than just barely above JJM-level in terms of losing to absolute rookies. I mean, it's one thing if they were fighting against Ash's Kanto Team, or really, any of the seasoned vets prior to his current region, since at least they actually do have some degree of experience. It's quite another when they lose to absolute rookies, that's why I have a huge problem with gym leaders supposed skills right now (and it's even less fortunate when AG happened shortly after the writers and Misty's sisters forced Misty into a gym and left her unable to pursue her dreams).

 

[since'96]

One that fully evolves his Pokemon haha. I've been watching the indigo league since it's been on netflix and since I'm an "old" fan, and it really bugs me that he justets his Pokemon stay un-evolved. I have not watched a lot of the newer shows, because I was mad about some of the changes they made to the characters when I was a kid, but now I feel I should catch up. Hopefully they let him get stronger and allowed his Pokemon to evolve! I mean he could have had a venusaur, a blastoise, AND a charizard in the indigo league- but noooooooo!

 

[Tempest94]

Here a newbie's opinion. I think that Ash is naive, while he should have grown up in certain aspects of his personality, he has still the same pattern of acting, maybe a bit improved. But that's not bad in all circumstances: he is still far from the top (still far from growing up phisically), but it represents human weaks and human persistence for a goal.

Maybe he should mantain promises to his Pokémons (Primeape, Pidgeot, anyone remembers? xD)

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Here a newbie's opinion. I think that Ash is naive, while he should have grown up in certain aspects of his personality, he has still the same pattern of acting, maybe a bit improved. But that's not bad in all circumstances: he is still far from the top (still far from growing up phisically), but it represents human weaks and human persistence for a goal.

Maybe he should mantain promises to his Pokémons (Primeape, Pidgeot, anyone remembers? xD)

Technically, his promise to Primeape was dub only (in the Japanese version, he never made any promises of actually reuniting with Primeape, and in fact, the only person to even hint that they might see each other again was the narrator). Although I concede your point regarding actually reuniting with Pokémon he released (including Butterfree, whom he made a similar promise to). Probably the closest to an actual reunion between him and Butterfree was in an opening for Battle Frontier. And we've still got Pidgeot to be reunited (and despite Battle Frontier being set in Kanto, Ash still hasn't even met up with him, not even when travelling to Cerulean City). Ironically, the one Pokémon who actually does make reappearances, Charizard, Ash explicitly tells he probably isn't going to see again and even implies that he thought Charizard was weak [granted, in a reverse psychology manner, but still].

One that fully evolves his Pokemon haha. I've been watching the indigo league since it's been on netflix and since I'm an "old" fan, and it really bugs me that he justets his Pokemon stay un-evolved. I have not watched a lot of the newer shows, because I was mad about some of the changes they made to the characters when I was a kid, but now I feel I should catch up. Hopefully they let him get stronger and allowed his Pokemon to evolve! I mean he could have had a venusaur, a blastoise, AND a charizard in the indigo league- but noooooooo!

Well, to be fair, most of Ash's Pokémon didn't actually want to evolve (heck, Bulbasaur even had an episode focusing on this), so it's not like Ash made sure they never evolved. And considering his Squirtle was the leader of the Squirtle Squad, and his group has a rivalry with the Wartortle Squad, chances are his Squirtle isn't likely to evolve either (though he has no problem with all Wartortles, however: He aided a Wartortle who requested aid regarding his fellow brethren's strangely falling asleep on his island, after all).