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What kind of Ash do you want?

NyxShooter

drifting wanderer
211
Posts
10
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  • I think the most ideal Ash to me would be an Ash who is used to loosing and winning at the same time. I also want to see Ash try to open up to different ideas of Pokemon rather than:
    8 Gyms
    4 E4
    1 Champion
    *Repeat*
    I also want an Ash who can represent different points of society, and an Ash who is not always smug.
     
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    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    I really don't know what your deal is with Pikachu and why you're so against him but Pikachu and Ash are like two peas in a pod. You can't have Ash without Pikachu and vice versa. That said Pikachu is never going to be left behind and yes, this also means that Pikachu will be used for many key battles including gym battles. For Ash to not use Pikachu would be not showing the mutual bond that the two of them have (which, for many people, is already deemed a problem that there isn't enough of that bond with Pikachu in XY). That said Pikachu has been used in most gym battles to begin with so Ash not using his main Pokemon in anymore gym battles it wouldn't be Ash.

    And please let's not forget Nimbasa, what I would say one of the worst gym battles, when Ash conciously wanted to leave Pikachu out of the gym battle. That was a mistake that should not be done again. If he isn't going to use Pikachu in a gym battle it should definitely not be in that manner and there should be very good reasoning for it as well.

    Yes, Pikachu losing to certain Pokemon might be a pain but this isn't the games. You can't base a Pokemon's power based on level but on skill and far more.

    But yeah, remember that this anime is more than just the gym battles. It's about the bonds and friendship Ash has with his Pokemon and while he, yes, keeps most of his regional Pokemon with professor oak when he goes to a new region getting rid of Pikachu, who was his first Pokemon, partner, and the Pokemon he has a much deeper connection to than any other trainer, it wouldn't be right. Arguably, as said before, we need to see more of that mutual bond that Pikachu and Ash have (BW did a pretty good job in this respect) than it current has in XY (which is one of it's weaker points).

    Unfortunately, bonding or not, there's little point if they are going to have Pikachu's power be treated inconsistently to an extent that he looks bad. And it's not like they can't do that with any Pokémon without not bonding with them. After all, they did it with Ash's Kanto Starters, and it's pretty obvious he bonded with them. And they also grew stronger as well.

    And I never said or even meant "level" as in gameplay, but the actual amount of experience the Pokémon has, which even in reality is somewhat of a factor in deciding the outcome of a battle or a match. Let's think of it this way: You pit a veteran, with a huge amount of strength and skill, against a rookie who is inexperienced and has no idea what he's doing, chances are very high that the veteran's going to win. That's what I'm meaning. And honestly, a Pokémon who is capable of effortlessly beating a freaking Legendary Pokémon (who are definitely reputed to being exceptionally strong Pokémon even in the Anime) most certainly can breeze through all except possibly the Elite 4 and Champion, that's what I'm getting at, and even ignoring the fact that Pikachu beat that Regice in Battle Frontier, having it lose to Gym Leaders, characters who, BTW, during Hoenn were treated as pansies for the most part and more often than not lose against rookies makes it look very bad.

    And besides, they can have Pikachu forsake a match without it impacting his bond with Ash. Don't forget, he specifically refused to fight Misty back in Kanto, and that didn't impact their bond at all.

    As he and Pikachu are at the heart of an anime franchise that tells more or less the same basic story with each new iteration with only a small connection to what came before, Satoshi's personality doesn't change that much and probably never will. This isn't to say that he can't develop and learn new things, or that his story can't be told in different ways (for example: Satoshi's journey in Diamond & Pearl was different from his journey in Advanced Generation...), but I have to imagine that whatever way he does develop is going to have to be limited by necessity. So to answer your question: no, Satoshi's personality following AG doesn't undergo any radical changes, but his story in DP certainly does.

    This is one of the biggest reasons why Satoshi isn't fun to me in Best Wishes or XY. If you have a character who can't change that much because his story will need to continue into the next show and who's going to do the same thing each time, then he needs something new added to his journey to make it stand out. As much as I dislike Satoshi's story in Advanced Generation for how dull it often is compared to Haruka's it did get something out of contrasting Satoshi as a veteran against Haruka as a rookie, at least for a little while. And introducing Shinji as Satoshi's rival in Diamond & Pearl, and using him to actually challenge Satoshi's training style, made him more compelling in a way he never was before. BW and XY, meanwhile, do nothing new with Satoshi and Pikachu that hasn't already been done. Satoshi has never been a nuanced character, but he's been more bland in the last two shows than he's ever been and I think the lack of any clear variation to his journey is the reason why.

    That's another thing my ideal version of Satoshi would have. A journey that has more to offer than simply a rerun of what's been done better in previous shows, something that's unique to that particular incarnation of the anime.

    Yeah, and in regards to your comment/complaint about AG, it also doesn't help that Ash's Hoenn team for the most part tore through the Gym Leaders like tissue paper, even though their status as rookies compared to the Gym Leaders should have rendered that improbable, if not impossible, especially on the first try. I mean, I can understand Pikachu doing so, but not Treecko or Taillow. Just because Ash himself is experienced doesn't mean that all of his Hoenn team barring Pikachu should win against the gym leaders effortlessly and on the first try, especially when they are supposed to be challenges to be overcome. Having them beat the Gym Leaders like that makes the GLs no different than Team Rocket, especially when they were humiliated by a completely inexperienced, extremely weak, and, thanks to Ash's utter stupidity at that time, barely-even alive Caterpie despite their obviously having the advantage of being significantly more experienced and fresh in comparison (it even resulted in them, both by the fans and even in-universe, at least during Kanto, being designated as being extremely pathetic trainers).

    Paul at least gave a challenge (though it still was somewhat poor when Paul had beaten Pikachu, despite the latter having just beaten a Regice. I was hoping that Pikachu at least lose against Paul's starter Pokémon, since at least that Pokémon was confirmed to actually have travelled around as many of the same regions as Pikachu (not counting Orange Islands or the Battle Frontier).), so that made DP somewhat forgivable, and even the gym leaders were slightly more challenging that time around, though I was hoping there would be more rematches from Ash than there were (two would suffice).

    I want to see an Ash that would actually change as time went on as far as world views and ideals go. Then again I haven't seen the show since the Hoenn Battle Frontier arc so I'm unsure if Ash actually has changed a bit since then personality wise.

    Well, depending if you consider Ash completely regressing to his Kanto self during BW for literally no reason at all and being turned into such an idiot that even Kanto Ash seemed far more intelligent than him, he did change as time went on.
     
    Last edited:

    Lizardo

    Public Enemy
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    Yeah, and in regards to your comment/complaint about AG, it also doesn't help that Ash's Hoenn team for the most part tore through the Gym Leaders like tissue paper, even though their status as rookies compared to the Gym Leaders should have rendered that improbable, if not impossible, especially on the first try.
    I wouldn't exactly describe it as tearing "through Gym Leaders like tissue paper", as I don't recall Satoshi ever winning a single Gym battle without going down to the wire (and he never did truly defeat Tessen...). I also don't think every Gym Leader needs to be fought twice, as that sounds like a formula that would get pretty repetitive if done too much. Gym Leaders in both the games and the anime ultimately exist to be defeated by a trainer's growing team, and challengers already get significant advantages in that they can switch Pokémon and plan their strategies ahead of time based on readily available, pre-existing knowledge of the Gym they're about to face and the battle style of the Leader running it, which greatly helps to offset the advantage gained by said Gym Leader's more experienced Pokémon.

    The problem with AG's (and Jouto's, as well as Zakuro's Gym in XY, for that matter) Gyms is that you rarely get to see the kind of preparation Satoshi needs to go through in order to beat the Gym Leader - Touki being the one notable exception that I can think of. As a result, Satoshi's victories rarely feel earned. And in the case of all but two Gyms in AG, we don't get a real chance to get a feel for how the Gym Leader battles and see why they're a threat. DP did this with most of its Gym Leaders, and to its credit XY has also done this with Viola (who defeated Satoshi in their first official battle), Zakuro (who defeated Viola), and Corni (who has a Lucario capable of Mega Evolution, and has defeated Satoshi and Pikachu twice in one-sided unofficial battles). Each one has felt like a significant challenge over the former and I hope that continues as the anime progresses.

    To tie this back into the thread at hand, another thing my ideal Satoshi would do is make more of an effort to get to know the Gym Leader he's attempting to face. It's a minor issue, but it's kind of weird that Satoshi always gets caught completely off-guard by the Gym Leader when he sees their battle style. If he's seriously attempting to get into the League, shouldn't he be more aware of these things and not always have to get that information by accident? We've gotten chances to see Satoshi doing research on his opponents in Pokémon Leagues, so it's certainly not out of character for him. I get that the writers want it to be a surprise to the audience, but there are other ways to get across that surprise other than Satoshi being blindsided by information he really should already know.
     
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    I wouldn't exactly describe it as tearing "through Gym Leaders like tissue paper", as I don't recall Satoshi ever winning a single Gym battle without going down to the wire (and he never did truly defeat Tessen...). I also don't think every Gym Leader needs to be fought twice, as that sounds like a formula that would get pretty repetitive if done too much. Gym Leaders in both the games and the anime ultimately exist to be defeated by a trainer's growing team, and challengers already get significant advantages in that they can switch Pokémon and plan their strategies ahead of time based on readily available, pre-existing knowledge of the Gym they're about to face and the battle style of the Leader running it, which greatly helps to offset the advantage gained by said Gym Leader's more experienced Pokémon.

    The problem with AG's (and Jouto's, as well as Zakuro's Gym in XY, for that matter) Gyms is that you rarely get to see the kind of preparation Satoshi needs to go through in order to beat the Gym Leader - Touki being the one notable exception that I can think of. As a result, Satoshi's victories rarely feel earned. And in the case of all but two Gyms in AG, we don't get a real chance to get a feel for how the Gym Leader battles and see why they're a threat. DP did this with most of its Gym Leaders, and to its credit XY has also done this with Viola (who defeated Satoshi in their first official battle), Zakuro (who defeated Viola), and Corni (who has a Lucario capable of Mega Evolution, and has defeated Satoshi and Pikachu twice in one-sided unofficial battles). Each one has felt like a significant challenge over the former and I hope that continues as the anime progresses.

    To tie this back into the thread at hand, another thing my ideal Satoshi would do is make more of an effort to get to know the Gym Leader he's attempting to face. It's a minor issue, but it's kind of weird that Satoshi always gets caught completely off-guard by the Gym Leader when he sees their battle style. If he's seriously attempting to get into the League, shouldn't he be more aware of these things and not always have to get that information by accident? We've gotten chances to see Satoshi doing research on his opponents in Pokémon Leagues, so it's certainly not out of character for him. I get that the writers want it to be a surprise to the audience, but there are other ways to get across that surprise other than Satoshi being blindsided by information he really should already know.

    I know Gym Leaders primarily exist to be beaten, but do they really have to have most of the gym leaders being defeated by what are clearly rookie Pokémon? I prefer that they at least are treated like... say, Lt. Surge first round from Kanto, heck, Lt. Surge overall (since he often beats his opponents to such an extent that they really need to go to the ER ASAP). At least then, the Gym Leaders won't look weak from losing to rookies. I used the Surge example because its one of the few GL battles Ash faced in the region where Ash actually earned his badge by beating the GL rather than it being handed to him. The first, as a matter of fact. And Lt. Surge also fits in with your example because in a way, Ash actually did get to know the Gym Leader in question (when getting his Pokémon refreshed from the long journey, he witnessed a Pokémon being escorted to the ER in a hurried manner, with Joy commenting that it was the third one in a short period, resulting in a shot of the recovery rooms swarming with trainers and their Pokémon with the strong implication that all the challengers to Vermillion Gym end up meeting that fate up to that moment. Pikachu even witnessed another ER-bound Pokémon, and was justifiably frightened at fighting Lt. Surge).
     
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    I know Gym Leaders primarily exist to be beaten, but do they really have to have most of the gym leaders being defeated by what are clearly rookie Pokémon? I prefer that they at least are treated like... say, Lt. Surge first round from Kanto, heck, Lt. Surge overall (since he often beats his opponents to such an extent that they really need to go to the ER ASAP). At least then, the Gym Leaders won't look weak from losing to rookies. I used the Surge example because its one of the few GL battles Ash faced in the region where Ash actually earned his badge by beating the GL rather than it being handed to him. The first, as a matter of fact. And Lt. Surge also fits in with your example because in a way, Ash actually did get to know the Gym Leader in question (when getting his Pokémon refreshed from the long journey, he witnessed a Pokémon being escorted to the ER in a hurried manner, with Joy commenting that it was the third one in a short period, resulting in a shot of the recovery rooms swarming with trainers and their Pokémon with the strong implication that all the challengers to Vermillion Gym end up meeting that fate up to that moment. Pikachu even witnessed another ER-bound Pokémon, and was justifiably frightened at fighting Lt. Surge).

    Oh Please , Ash got his ass kicked by a complete Rookie with a OBVIOUS PLOT AMOUR.
    So I don't give a dam care about Gym-leader .
    Also According to your theory , It will take 2 Or 5 year for Ash Or any Rookie to participate in One Pokemon League .
    This is an Anime , Not a Real life so those real life theory doesn't work there.
    Also , Ash may use Rookie Pokemon But he himself an experienced trainer So he let his experience to cover the gap.
    Also , Gym-Leader doesn't use their powerful pokemon from the start , They use weaker pokemon against rookies to even the gap.
    You can see that in the game , Gym-leader use weaker pokemon at first battle and use stronger pokemon at rematch .
    Let be honest , If Pikachu become star of every Gym-Battle then we are talking about Boring ass Series of Gym-battles .

    In AG , Corphise was pretty strong from the start ! It easily overwhelm Pikachu in raw Power So there no doubt that its even stronger with Ash's Tactic .
    Same Goes with Treeko ! It outspeed Pikachu so Ash needed tactic to beat him .
    And Swallow , That thing took so many Thundervolt from Pikachu yet kept on fighting as Tailow. There no wonder that its freaking Strong on Ash's hand . Remember , Ash Beaten Winona Swallow with Tactic , Not Power .
    Torkoal was packing with Powerful move like Overheat and Flamethrower .There no question about it strength .
    So You see , Wild Pokemon isn't as Low level as you think ! Most of Ash's AG Pokemon was super strong before Ash even caught them So they being capable of beating Gym-Leader with the help of Ash tactic was TOTALLY LEGIT .
     

    Satoshi Ookami

    Memento Mori
    14,254
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  • OBVIOUS PLOT AMOUR.
    200_s.gif

    Obvious plot is obvious.


    Let be honest , If Pikachu become star of every Gym-Battle then we are talking about Boring ass Series of Gym-battles .
    But Ash would start winning which is precisely what you want.
     
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    Oh Please , Ash got his ass kicked by a complete Rookie with a OBVIOUS PLOT AMOUR.
    So I don't give a dam care about Gym-leader .
    Also According to your theory , It will take 2 Or 5 year for Ash Or any Rookie to participate in One Pokemon League .
    This is an Anime , Not a Real life so those real life theory doesn't work there.
    Also , Ash may use Rookie Pokemon But he himself an experienced trainer So he let his experience to cover the gap.
    Also , Gym-Leader doesn't use their powerful pokemon from the start , They use weaker pokemon against rookies to even the gap.
    You can see that in the game , Gym-leader use weaker pokemon at first battle and use stronger pokemon at rematch .
    Let be honest , If Pikachu become star of every Gym-Battle then we are talking about Boring ass Series of Gym-battles .

    In AG , Corphise was pretty strong from the start ! It easily overwhelm Pikachu in raw Power So there no doubt that its even stronger with Ash's Tactic .
    Same Goes with Treeko ! It outspeed Pikachu so Ash needed tactic to beat him .
    And Swallow , That thing took so many Thundervolt from Pikachu yet kept on fighting as Tailow. There no wonder that its freaking Strong on Ash's hand . Remember , Ash Beaten Winona Swallow with Tactic , Not Power .
    Torkoal was packing with Powerful move like Overheat and Flamethrower .There no question about it strength .
    So You see , Wild Pokemon isn't as Low level as you think ! Most of Ash's AG Pokemon was super strong before Ash even caught them So they being capable of beating Gym-Leader with the help of Ash tactic was TOTALLY LEGIT .

    Maybe so, but on the other hand, there's a huge difference between being skilled in the wild and fighting under the beck and call of a trainer, hence the "experience" part. And besides, are you going to claim Ash's Caterpie as being strong just because it managed to completely kick Ekans, Koffing, and Meowth's respective butts without taking names despite... I don't know, having been severely weakened by Pidgeotto thanks to Ash's stupidity, or being completely inexperienced and certainly weak enough to actually be captured without even needing to be battled as Misty pointed out? Because what Ash's AG Pokémon did with the Gym Leaders is exactly the same thing.
     

    Lizardo

    Public Enemy
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    I know Gym Leaders primarily exist to be beaten, but do they really have to have most of the gym leaders being defeated by what are clearly rookie Pokémon?
    Well, yes, as that's what they're there for. It's through beating the Gym Leaders that we see the progress that Satoshi and his growing team of Pokémon are making.

    If it helps you could keep in mind that, again, challengers do get significant advantages of their own. They can form strategies based on readily-available information about the Gym Leader, their battle style, and even the Pokémon that they use. This is how Satoshi wins a lot of his badges, his strategies are based on countering what he knows about the Gym Leader.

    I prefer that they at least are treated like... say, Lt. Surge first round from Kanto, heck, Lt. Surge overall (since he often beats his opponents to such an extent that they really need to go to the ER ASAP).
    I agree that Gym Leaders should always be presented as challenges and Matis was a decent, early example of how to do that. In fact, I mentioned earlier how a big part of my problem with a lot of AG's Gym battles were that many of those Gym Leaders weren't presented in a way that got across why they'd be a challenge until it came time for their battle with Satoshi. I liked Touki and Senri's battles because we actually did get a chance to see them both in action before Satoshi defeated them, and the anime demonstrated exactly why they were a challenge and why it was impressive for Satoshi to beat them. And because Satoshi had seen them in action beforehand, he could develop a strategy that would make his victory believable.

    I think the only point where we really disagree with each other is that Satoshi must always fight the Gym Leader at least twice to get across the idea of them as a threat. There are a few ways to demonstrate why they're a challenge. Satoshi could lose to them in an official challenge, he could lose to them in an unofficial battle, we could see them fight someone else with a really strong Pokémon, etc. Just as long as we get why their battle style works and give Satoshi an opportunity to develop a strategy for a believable victory.
     
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    Well, yes, as that's what they're there for. It's through beating the Gym Leaders that we see the progress that Satoshi and his growing team of Pokémon are making.

    I don't deny that, but there has to be a better way than having them defeat the GLs easily, usually in the first try. The way they did it in Hoenn, heck, Sinnoh to a lesser extent was frankly too similar to what happened to Team Rocket in Episode 3 of the anime in general (or original series).

    You probably don't need a reminder of what that was like, but just in case you do, in Episode 3, Team Rocket managed to disable Pikachu by having Ekans spit into its eyes, and they even took down Pidgeotto fairly easily (who had just recently been caught by Ash). They then faced up against Caterpie, who BTW lost against Pidgeotto and was nearly killed by it, not to mention even without that act of stupidity on Ash's part, Caterpie was weak enough to be caught in a Poke Ball without even being battled first. Meanwhile, Team Rocket was experienced compared to Ash, who at that time was a rookie (if we go by their claims about Ekans and Koffing being from holidays in the Giant Pokémon episode, they had possibly trained them for at most a year), not to mention were already strong enough to effortlessly beat Pidgeotto and even get the drop on Pikachu despite it being responsible for their first defeat, heck, were even dangerous enough to require wanted posters and most certainly were fresh compared to Caterpie. Despite all of that, Caterpie managed to effortlessly defeat them with string shot and tackle. To make matters worse, Caterpie also managed to beat Meowth despite him being even more fresh and likely experienced than either of the two Pokémon before it. Thanks to that defeat, not only did the fanbase consider them to be extremely pathetic trainers, but at least during the Original series, even the in-universe characters considered them to be such. Also keep in mind that this episode occurred well before Team Rocket officially became comic relief.

    The way they handled GLs in AG certainly, possibly DP to a lesser extent was, well, it was frankly similar to what happened in Episode 3, and that's the primary reason why I'm not too happy about how they have rookie Pokémon beating them that easily. It's like they want the GLs to be JJM instead of actual great trainers.

    If it helps you could keep in mind that, again, challengers do get significant advantages of their own. They can form strategies based on readily-available information about the Gym Leader, their battle style, and even the Pokémon that they use. This is how Satoshi wins a lot of his badges, his strategies are based on countering what he knows about the Gym Leader.

    I agree, and I also wish GLs weren't treated like JJM are frequently treated, which unfortunately was the case in AG at least.

    I agree that Gym Leaders should always be presented as challenges and Matis was a decent, early example of how to do that. In fact, I mentioned earlier how a big part of my problem with a lot of AG's Gym battles were that many of those Gym Leaders weren't presented in a way that got across why they'd be a challenge until it came time for their battle with Satoshi. I liked Touki and Senri's battles because we actually did get a chance to see them both in action before Satoshi defeated them, and the anime demonstrated exactly why they were a challenge and why it was impressive for Satoshi to beat them. And because Satoshi had seen them in action beforehand, he could develop a strategy that would make his victory believable.

    I think the only point where we really disagree with each other is that Satoshi must always fight the Gym Leader at least twice to get across the idea of them as a threat. There are a few ways to demonstrate why they're a challenge. Satoshi could lose to them in an official challenge, he could lose to them in an unofficial battle, we could see them fight someone else with a really strong Pokémon, etc. Just as long as we get why their battle style works and give Satoshi an opportunity to develop a strategy for a believable victory.

    Agreed. Certainly beats them losing in a similar manner to Team Rocket at least, which makes them seem like bad trainers, really.
     

    Wobbu

    bunger bunger bunger bunger
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  • This is not a thread about the skill of Gym Leaders. This thread is about your ideal version of Ash; please stay on topic. There is currently room for a separate thread about Gym Leaders in the forum, so please start a new thread rather than going off topic in this thread.
     

    Chimchar

    THE Chimchar Tamer
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  • I just wish to see Ash grow up. Literally! He's only been 10 for like 15 years!
     
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    I want Ash to be like those Protagonist who act like the biggest idiot But in reality he's the most smartest & Mature one of the group.
     
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    I love how the Ash-haters want Ash to be this super-perfect trainer like Red (or dare I say, Paul). Give me a break. This is Pokemon. You must be living in a dream world if you think Satoshi is going to break the anime cliches. Satoshi uses Pikachu all the time not because he's overrated, but because kids find it cute. Satoshi forget moves and previous techniques because every new Japanese season was meant to appeal to a new generation of Pokemon fans (unlike the dubs). Satoshi preaches love and friendship because it's a freaking kids show. Why don't you complain that Disney movies are too family-friendly and don't contain rape, sex, and ultraviolence?

    Seriously, the amount of cynics among Pokemon fans is so typical. Generally, Pokemon fans could be split into two portion - the idealistic anime fans that enjoy playing the games for meeting new Pokemon and the pragmatic competitive battlers that only want to get all the OU/Uber Pokemon. Generally anyway. Caught in the latter group are also CoD-alike players that swear and name-call on Pokemon Showdown and also called Satoshi "*** and gay", among other Alpha Male stereotypical actions. They also called Pokemon contests gay on numerous occasions, a defense that can be used to justify Kasumi's strength over Haruka and Hikari IMO... though that's another subject for another day.

    Anyway, I'm up to Diamond and Pearl, and Satoshi, while he irks me a little bit from time to time, earns my respect enough to have me stand with him rather than against him when Shinji is considered. It's a tough call, considering that I once considered Shinji's methods to be much better than Satoshi... until the tag-battle episode, when he tortured Chimchar. Yes, tortured. I don't care how you romanticize it, but that's some f-ed up s***, that little boy. He needs counseling. With that said, I have little problems when it comes to Satoshi's methods, for now. I still wish that he uses OU/Uber Pokemon just to kick Shinji's ass for being an *******, but that just means that nice guys and honorable people would often gain people's trusts and support over jerkasses and militaristic pragmatists, no matter how weak they are. And besides, strength is relative. It's not always about beating people up... which kinda subside my prior criticism of Haruka and Hikari's strengths. Ah well. If you hate Satoshi for being weak, then you might as well hate those two girls as well. Pokemon contests. What a joke.
     

    Haggerella

    Captain Butts
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  • Wow, this thread got srs fast. Haha.

    My favourite Ash to date is Sinnoh Ash. He actually started learning from his experiences, fixed his flaws, let his pokemon evolve, and wasn't such an idiot every damn day? I was basically in tears when he beat Paul. And i was *furious* when Unova Ash was revealed and pikachu lost to a level 5 Snivy and he was reduced to an infant once more for the whole series. Kalos Ash is pretty okay, he's really wooden/passionless at times though :/

    Basically I want Ash to actually grow and learn in each season to get better and stronger while collecting more friends and harder challenges, and have a real passion to do so and for a reason, like with Paul being such a jerk he had to prove himself, and made him a more believable character, because after all his rubbish losses to Awful Jerks and Hueg Losers, he deserves to do well, and it's just frustrating when each new series introduces him as a weak idiot, when it's been shown that he's a smart kid when he puts his mind to it.
     
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    I love how the Ash-haters want Ash to be this super-perfect trainer like Red (or dare I say, Paul). Give me a break. This is Pokemon. You must be living in a dream world if you think Satoshi is going to break the anime cliches. Satoshi uses Pikachu all the time not because he's overrated, but because kids find it cute. Satoshi forget moves and previous techniques because every new Japanese season was meant to appeal to a new generation of Pokemon fans (unlike the dubs). Satoshi preaches love and friendship because it's a freaking kids show. Why don't you complain that Disney movies are too family-friendly and don't contain rape, sex, and ultraviolence?

    Seriously, the amount of cynics among Pokemon fans is so typical. Generally, Pokemon fans could be split into two portion - the idealistic anime fans that enjoy playing the games for meeting new Pokemon and the pragmatic competitive battlers that only want to get all the OU/Uber Pokemon. Generally anyway. Caught in the latter group are also CoD-alike players that swear and name-call on Pokemon Showdown and also called Satoshi "*** and gay", among other Alpha Male stereotypical actions. They also called Pokemon contests gay on numerous occasions, a defense that can be used to justify Kasumi's strength over Haruka and Hikari IMO... though that's another subject for another day.

    Anyway, I'm up to Diamond and Pearl, and Satoshi, while he irks me a little bit from time to time, earns my respect enough to have me stand with him rather than against him when Shinji is considered. It's a tough call, considering that I once considered Shinji's methods to be much better than Satoshi... until the tag-battle episode, when he tortured Chimchar. Yes, tortured. I don't care how you romanticize it, but that's some f-ed up s***, that little boy. He needs counseling. With that said, I have little problems when it comes to Satoshi's methods, for now. I still wish that he uses OU/Uber Pokemon just to kick Shinji's ass for being an *******, but that just means that nice guys and honorable people would often gain people's trusts and support over jerkasses and militaristic pragmatists, no matter how weak they are. And besides, strength is relative. It's not always about beating people up... which kinda subside my prior criticism of Haruka and Hikari's strengths. Ah well. If you hate Satoshi for being weak, then you might as well hate those two girls as well. Pokemon contests. What a joke.

    I never said that Ash should be perfect (and I definitely don't want him emulating Paul's harsh treatment of Chimchar. To be honest, Paul's actions to his Pokémon are precisely the reason why how Kanto did badges is better, since honestly, at least there actually a point beyond simply beating the gym leader, since let's face it, if one of the contestants at the League is exposed as a Pokémon abuser during the match, there would in fact be a lot of investigating of the Gym Leaders who permitted such a trainer to advance to the league). However, he definitely should actually be shown as being strong (not lacking of compassion, but definitely show him as actually being as strong as his experience implies. Do you really want Ash to become like JJM, for example, especially their treatment in their second appearance in the overall anime franchise where they lost to a freaking Caterpie that was not only completely inexperienced, but thanks to Ash's stupidity barely even alive?).

    When the entire Pokémon anime franchise (would say "series," but technically there's been five series already) has an entire goal predicated on, you know, beating up Gym Leaders and trying to measure strength and skill in the Pokémon Leagues, yes, actually depicting Ash as getting stronger is indeed very necessary. Heck, Ash made clear his goal is to become the World's Greatest Pokémon Master. If they wanted to simply showcase new Pokémon, they should do a Discovery Channel-type show that, you know, focuses on some new Pokémon each day, doesn't involve any battling at all, or anything like that). Heck, make Ash a Pokémon researcher, since that all but guarantees that he does this.

    Wow, this thread got srs fast. Haha.

    My favourite Ash to date is Sinnoh Ash. He actually started learning from his experiences, fixed his flaws, let his pokemon evolve, and wasn't such an idiot every damn day? I was basically in tears when he beat Paul. And i was *furious* when Unova Ash was revealed and pikachu lost to a level 5 Snivy and he was reduced to an infant once more for the whole series. Kalos Ash is pretty okay, he's really wooden/passionless at times though :/

    Basically I want Ash to actually grow and learn in each season to get better and stronger while collecting more friends and harder challenges, and have a real passion to do so and for a reason, like with Paul being such a jerk he had to prove himself, and made him a more believable character, because after all his rubbish losses to Awful Jerks and Hueg Losers, he deserves to do well, and it's just frustrating when each new series introduces him as a weak idiot, when it's been shown that he's a smart kid when he puts his mind to it.

    I agree with you there, both in regards to having Ash actually grow as well as how poorly BW Ash was treated. I might not agree with you about the level 5 Snivy bit, though only because the Anime technically never used levels since the School of Hard Knocks almost 14 years ago. I fully agree otherwise, especially what you were trying to convey (fresh start or not, Zekrom disabling Pikachu's electrical abilities or not, Ash absolutely SHOULD NOT have lost to a trainer who was literally just starting out!).
     
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    Ash absolutely SHOULD NOT have lost to a trainer who was literally just starting out!).
    Logically, he shouldn't, but like I stated in the other thread, the existence of new gen kids means that a reboot of everything, including Satoshi's abilities as a trainer and his Pokemon's powers, are necessary for marketing - whether it makes sense in the meta sense or not.
     
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    Logically, he shouldn't, but like I stated in the other thread, the existence of new gen kids means that a reboot of everything, including Satoshi's abilities as a trainer and his Pokemon's powers, are necessary for marketing - whether it makes sense in the meta sense or not.

    You've got to be kidding me! Goku never has an ability reset in the Dragon Ball series, even in instances where new fans are clearly coming in. I think the closest he's gotten to that sort of thing is in Dragon Ball GT when he lost to a crying kid during the World Martial Arts Tournament's junior tournament during the Super 17 Saga, and even THAT had an actual plot-relevant reason for doing so as he was unexpectedly transformed into a kid thanks to Emperor Pilaf. And keep in mind that needed marketing just as much as Pokémon, heck, any franchise does.

    And besides, most new gen kids can easily look it up on the internet. I know I can and I definitely knew an Elementary school kid who not only knew about Misty, but even also tried to aid in bringing her back, and this was just a few years ago back when I was a Sophomore in High School, around the time that DP was airing in the states. If kids back then still heard of Misty (and he was third, maybe fourth grade at most), even when Dawn replaced May, I can definitely guarantee that kids in Japan would have the same thing.
     
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    You've got to be kidding me! Goku never has an ability reset in the Dragon Ball series, even in instances where new fans are clearly coming in. I think the closest he's gotten to that sort of thing is in Dragon Ball GT when he lost to a crying kid during the World Martial Arts Tournament's junior tournament during the Super 17 Saga, and even THAT had an actual plot-relevant reason for doing so as he was unexpectedly transformed into a kid thanks to Emperor Pilaf. And keep in mind that needed marketing just as much as Pokémon, heck, any franchise does.

    And besides, most new gen kids can easily look it up on the internet. I know I can and I definitely knew an Elementary school kid who not only knew about Misty, but even also tried to aid in bringing her back, and this was just a few years ago back when I was a Sophomore in High School, around the time that DP was airing in the states. If kids back then still heard of Misty (and he was third, maybe fourth grade at most), even when Dawn replaced May, I can definitely guarantee that kids in Japan would have the same thing.
    You are comparing Dragon Balls to Pokemon? Seriously? How many years and season do Pokemon have compared to Dragon Balls? The generation-gap is obvious compared to DB fans. And besides, do you seriously want to compare a srs bnz show like Dragon Balls to 'love-and-friendship' Pokemon? One is targeted towards adrenaline-fueled shounen kids, while the other is marketed towards naive kids who believe Japan won WWII by shaking hands with Americans. Well, okay, technically they did have peace, but that's beside the point.

    Anyway, my point is that it makes sense why they rebooted. It's the same reason why any franchise would be rebooted - to target the new generation. America does it plenty of times so why are you surprised with one franchise's reboot?

    Also, most kids that know who Kasumi was... won't necessary have the same connection as the older kids. They'd be like, "Meh, who's Kasumi? Hikari rules, Kasumi drools."
     
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    You are comparing Dragon Balls to Pokemon? Seriously? How many years and season do Pokemon have compared to Dragon Balls? The generation-gap is obvious compared to DB fans. And besides, do you seriously want to compare a srs bnz show like Dragon Balls to 'love-and-friendship' Pokemon? One is targeted towards adrenaline-fueled shounen kids, while the other is marketed towards naive kids who believe Japan won WWII by shaking hands with Americans. Well, okay, technically they did have peace, but that's beside the point.

    Anyway, my point is that it makes sense why they rebooted. It's the same reason why any franchise would be rebooted - to target the new generation. America does it plenty of times so why are you surprised with one franchise's reboot?

    Also, most kids that know who Kasumi was... won't necessary have the same connection as the older kids. They'd be like, "Meh, who's Kasumi? Hikari rules, Kasumi drools."

    Actually, a "Love-and-Friendship" kind of show would be something like Barney and Friends, or Mickey Mouse Club. Pokémon ain't that, and in fact is closer to a Shonen anime precisely BECAUSE of their being leagues.

    And if it was a true reboot, Ash wouldn't even be there at all. Heck, had I been the writers, I'd even make sure Ash is replaced with the RSE male protagonist in Hoenn, and have him replaced in DP, lather rinse repeat. After all, if we're going to have an advertisement and marketing of the games, might as well make sure ALL characters are replaced, period, no exceptions.

    And that kid I alluded to would have not even heard of Misty by your logic, yet I was there and he definitely agreed Misty should have returned even though there was no way he should have been able to watch the Kanto series, never mind the Original Series as a whole, and would have at best been familiar with AG and think May was the best.
     
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    Actually, a "Love-and-Friendship" kind of show would be something like Barney and Friends, or Mickey Mouse Club. Pokémon ain't that, and in fact is closer to a Shonen anime precisely BECAUSE of their being leagues.
    Still doesn't bring Pokemon to Dragon Balls' level of alpha male shounen. More than half of the Pokemon anime franchise is filled with idealistic values, including the value of losing at the leagues. The leagues aren't Super Seiyan's level of pumping adrenaline; they are marketed to be educational at best. Otherwise, you'd have planet-destroyers like Arceus wiping out the planet every fifth episode.

    And if it was a true reboot, Ash wouldn't even be there at all. Heck, had I been the writers, I'd even make sure Ash is replaced with the RSE male protagonist in Hoenn, and have him replaced in DP, lather rinse repeat. After all, if we're going to have an advertisement and marketing of the games, might as well make sure ALL characters are replaced, period, no exceptions.
    Or maybe they thought that since the protagonist sells in the previous seasons, they might as well use him again in the new season. A poor marketing choice by your logic, sure, but still, it makes sense.

    And that kid I alluded to would have not even heard of Misty by your logic, yet I was there and he definitely agreed Misty should have returned even though there was no way he should have been able to watch the Kanto series, never mind the Original Series as a whole, and would have at best been familiar with AG and think May was the best.
    So one kid is smart enough not to follow the sheep. Big deal. We are talking about an entire demographic here, thank you.
     
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