Feminism

i personally agree with feminism because i've seen women being walked over again and again and again. men get higher paying jobs, more society privileges and they don't have to have the babies. we do, then men desert us for a young girl in a thong so then we're left alone, narrowly dodging suicide every day, trying to keep strong for the children.

we want more rights because look at it this way, our lives are dedicated to serving men and getting as much cosmetic surgery as possible for men. what do they do for us? get us a pretty necklace? sure, like THAT will keep us happy, a little memento of our past husbands who deserted us in search of a new bird.

some men are good, some men protect and help women, but when the rest of the free world are raping us and abusing us in every way possible, it barely makes a difference.

do we rape men? get them impregnated? no, we do not, but if we could after all the crap they did to us, they'd all be too afraid to go out into the streets.

i'm a full-fledged feminist and you can say whatever you want to, but i've witnessed some serious got damn sheet (new word for the other word) and i want retribution for my sisters.

Salamence62 said:

we want more rights because look at it this way, our lives are dedicated to serving men and getting as much cosmetic surgery as possible for men. what do they do for us? get us a pretty necklace? sure, like THAT will keep us happy, a little memento of our past husbands who deserted us in search of a new bird.

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This right here is an example of a "revenge" mentality, where one believes they are justified in punishing the other for perceived or actual harm. But the problem is, two wrongs do not make a right. A person, or group of people, cannot make right an injustice by perpetuating another injustice in turn. All it ends up doing is furthering the harm being caused to society and creating conflict. It's clear that you have no interest in equality of the sexes. What you want is revenge, and that's not going to solve a darn thing.

Salamence62 said:

do we rape men? get them impregnated? no, we do not, but if we could after all the crap they did to us, they'd all be too afraid to go out into the streets.

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Yes, woman do rape men. And you'd know this if you actually did some research on the subject. And it's just as wrong for females to sexually assault males as it is wrong for anyone to sexually assault another person, regardless of their sex.

Salamence62 said:

i'm a full-fledged feminist and you can say whatever you want to, but i've witnessed some serious got damn sheet (new word for the other word) and i want retribution for my sisters.

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Fine, then find a way to correct the injustices you've seen done to woman. But if your solution is to visit those same harms upon men in revenge, you'll become no better than the men you apparently hate so much. And then all you'll do is cause more harm to society as a result. I suggest you actually stop and think before making such outlandish and irresponsible statements.

Most of this discussion has been surprisingly rational, but I have to take issue with this new post.

Salamence62 said:

i personally agree with feminism because i've seen women being walked over again and again and again. men get higher paying jobs,

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Men choose to take higher paying jobs than women. There are individual cases where women get paid less, just like there are individual cases where men get paid less. Bias is present individually, but I don't see the evidence of a systemic problem when you factor in the kinds of jobs men choose to take versus the kinds of jobs women choose to take. But you're free to believe what you will on this, I don't see any harm in pushing for equal wage treatment even if I think that's more or less what we already have.

more society privileges

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BS. Like the "privilege" of getting utterly screwed over in divorce court? Men almost always end up getting the short end of the stick in divorce court. Things get even worse in family proceedings; men almost never get favorable custody, even if the woman is completely off her rocker and obviously a failure as a parent. Sometimes men are even forbidden from seeing the child merely because the woman lies and the court believes her. But you better believe we're going to be stuck with paying child support, payments that bad mothers love to abuse and don't put toward raising the child. I mean, unless the woman chooses to abort, a choice which the man never has. Let me describe the choices a man has when it comes to pregnancy: either the woman wants to have the child and the man has to deal with it, or the woman doesn't want the child and the man has to deal with it. We have no choice but all responsibility.

And then there's the huge difference between sentencing for men and women; men often get two to three times the sentence (or worse) for the exact same crime, if the court even bothers to convict the woman (many get off with probation even for serious crimes). And male prisons are well known to be a veritable hellhole.

Oh, but we're "privileged." Sorry, I forgot. You can have those "privileges" any time you want. I never asked for any of this crap, I just want fair treatment.

and they don't have to have the babies. we do, then men desert us for a young girl in a thong so then we're left alone, narrowly dodging suicide every day, trying to keep strong for the children.

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Except for forced child support, which I've already touched on. And you, as the woman, have the choice to (a) abort, (b) adopt out, or (c) go to court to get your child support payments increased. The man can't do any of these things (theoretically, if he has custody, he can do c, but this almost never happens since (a) men almost never get primary custody and (b) if a man does get custody, it's probably because he's so absurdly rich that he can afford to battle for it and the court won't allow increased payments). Some men run away from parental "responsibilities." Somehow this is seen as a bad thing despite the fact that women can literally do the exact same thing by aborting or adopting out with no guilt, no shame, no problem.

we want more rights

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In other words, you want unfair treatment. Consider that for a moment: you're arguing for unequal treatment based on sex. That's the definition of sexism, in case you didn't know.

because look at it this way, our lives are dedicated to serving men

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Where do you live? Malaysia? Women are free to do what they want in every first world country that I'm aware of.

and getting as much cosmetic surgery as possible for men.

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Nobody's forcing you to do that. That's a choice you make because you want to look good for men. Don't blame others for your own decisions. That's irresponsible.

what do they do for us? get us a pretty necklace?

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Well, for starters, men are usually the breadwinners in the family. This is changing for a lot of reasons, but it's still skewed slightly in favor of men earning the money, if only because men tend to choose higher paying jobs and men are saddled with the expectation that they'll be the responsible ones and raise the family. A lot of feminists are seeking to change that, and I agree with them. However, the current state of affairs does have many men playing that role.

That said, what you describe sounds like a problem with an individual man, not all of men. If you don't think you or someone you know is being treated fairly, maybe you shouldn't be associating with them. Nobody's forcing you to be with someone you think doesn't treat you fairly. That said, the fact that you seem to think men owe you anything is utterly absurd. Again, getting cosmetic surgery is your choice and nobody owes you anything for choosing to get it done.

sure, like THAT will keep us happy, a little memento of our past husbands who deserted us in search of a new bird.

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Again, that sounds like your problem. If your decisions in life aren't making you happy, maybe you should rethink those decisions rather than cast blame everywhere else.

some men are good, some men protect and help women, but when the rest of the free world are raping us and abusing us in every way possible, it barely makes a difference.

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I think a lot of feminists would take issue with that statement, and so would I. Why do men need to protect you at all? Are you implying women are weaker than men? Again, you're saying here that women deserve superior treatment merely for being women. That's not right.

do we rape men? get them impregnated? no, we do not,

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Yes, "you" do rape men. Female-on-male rape is a very real problem and ignorant statements like this only serve to isolate the victims further.

but if we could after all the crap they did to us, they'd all be too afraid to go out into the streets.

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Again, women can and do rape men. It's ironic that you're trying to paint men as being weak here when, two sentences ago, you claimed the opposite: that men need to protect and help women (implying that men are stronger). At this point, it sounds more like you're just throwing whatever hate at men you can come up with.

i'm a full-fledged feminist and you can say whatever you want to, but i've witnessed some serious got damn sheet (new word for the other word) and i want retribution for my sisters.

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And that's the key, isn't it? You don't want fairness. You don't want equality. You want retribution, you want revenge. And not just revenge on the one or two or several men who you think have wronged you, you want revenge on all men. You seriously need to take a step back and rethink your position, this is the kind of blind hatred that can end up hurting people.

Sometimes I look around and I'm like, hey, I don't actually care if you have a vagina or if you're one of the penis people, because it doesn't change who you are or what you can do, it just means your plumbing is different or the same as mine as that's okay. It's like we don't run our lives with our genitalia we can have the sex of a male but the social construct of a female and vice versa, the circumstances of birth are irrelevant, meaning sexuality, gender and race are irrelevant, it's what we do and who we are that people should give a ♥♥♥♥ about. That's my opinion on feminism anyway.

So yeah of course we still need feminism, but just equality in general. Until the day that we are brave enough to put a photo of a fat lady in a magazine, until songs like 'blurred lines' aren't made anymore, until people are paid the equally for doing the same job, until we say it's okay for boys to play with barbies, we will keep trying until we get it right, hopefully.

Don't start the blurred line stuff, just don't.

Do you know how many similar songs have been made by women without half the controversy? Do you think that the women in the video were *forced* to be topless and to be sexualised? They did so willingly and probably received enormous paychecks for it.

The only sexism in relation to blurred lines is from feminists who are perfectly okay with the songs of a similar nature released by women.

gimmepie said:

Don't start the blurred line stuff, just don't.

Do you know how many similar songs have been made by women without half the controversy? Do you think that the women in the video were *forced* to be topless and to be sexualised? They did so willingly and probably received enormous paychecks for it.

The only sexism in relation to blurred lines is from feminists who are perfectly okay with the songs of a similar nature released by women.

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Yeah I get that they chose to do the song but it reflects badly on females when songs identifying with rape and control over women are released, I don't see why other women should have to suffer for that. As well as this, a lot of the things the men were saying was anti-woman, and I remember seeing a picture where the things that they had said in the song were compared to things rapists had said to their victims and they were surprisingly similar.

I'm okay with people releasing songs exaggerated in order to make a point that the video was creepy and demoralising towards women, some that come to mind are defined lines and the Bart Baker parody, they are exaggerated to make a point. But I'm not okay with men assuming dominance over women, and women assuming dominance over men, I don't like songs where women assume control over men either, that's not feminism in my opinion, feminism is equal rights for men and women, not one in control over the other.

The song is not about rape. Simple as that really.

I will admit that there is a tone of the male character dominating the "good girl", but she actually enjoys being dominated - as do many real men and women. It's a song about kinky fetishism and sex, not rape.

gimmepie said:

The song is not about rape. Simple as that really.

I will admit that there is a tone of the male character dominating the "good girl", but she actually enjoys being dominated - as do many real men and women. It's a song about kinky fetishism and sex, not rape.

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I understand where you're coming from, and I admit it is possible to enjoy the song without understanding what it's trying to imply, but it's the title that bugged me the most, 'blurred lines', which implies from the video context if a woman says no she actually means yes, which can be identified with circumstances that lead to rape :/

@Lozzop - Or alternatively, it could refer to a girl who is leading you on without explicitly stating what she wants from you.

twocows said:

Men choose to take higher paying jobs than women.

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Are you saying that women are paid $.77 for every dollar a white man makes (it's like $.59 for Latino women) by choice?

twocows said:

Again, you're saying here that women deserve superior treatment merely for being women. That's not right.

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No one is saying this. To reach equality, oppressed groups of people are going to need more support than, say, white men. That's not superior treatment, it's raising less privileged people up. You can't reach equality without realizing some people need more help than others: just look at how many children standardized education "leaves behind".

I know that equality is scary to some men, mostly because they fear losing superiority, but that's something you need to get over before you say you want equality.

gimmepie said:

Don't start the blurred line stuff, just don't.

Do you know how many similar songs have been made by women without half the controversy? Do you think that the women in the video were *forced* to be topless and to be sexualised? They did so willingly and probably received enormous paychecks for it.

The only sexism in relation to blurred lines is from feminists who are perfectly okay with the songs of a similar nature released by women.

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Black women are constantly being scrutinized for any sexual nature in their music. No, they weren't forced - but do you really think they're going to turn down a job in this economy? That's like saying PoC are okay with being accessorized in music videos because they took the job. These people are simply choosing to survive, but that doesn't mean the roles they're given are acceptable.

Feminists are usually okay with sexual songs by women because they tend to be about enjoying and embracing ones sexuality. Blurred Lines was literally about rape.

gimmepie said:

@Lozzop - Or alternatively, it could refer to a girl who is leading you on without explicitly stating what she wants from you.

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If a woman says no to sex, she is saying no, that's not leading you on. Leading you on would be if she was getting something out of it, for example an obvious one, getting you to do her homework with the promise you might get together or something, which still is not an excuse for rape, in a situation where you are being led on just leave her alone because it's not worth your time. The song is showing three men in control over three women, we know this because of obvious symbolism, they stand still while the girls dance, they are fully clothes while the girls are topless. It is implying men are superior to women, and the title, blurred lines, is somewhat justifying rape, suggesting if she says no she is leading you on and means yes.

gimmepie said:

Don't start the blurred line stuff, just don't.

Do you know how many similar songs have been made by women without half the controversy? Do you think that the women in the video were *forced* to be topless and to be sexualised? They did so willingly and probably received enormous paychecks for it.

The only sexism in relation to blurred lines is from feminists who are perfectly okay with the songs of a similar nature released by women.

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I find it disingenuous when people make the argument that a woman chose to do something that contributes to the cultural trend of women as props, therefore there shouldn't be an issue. Women are part of the same culture that men are part of; for every man that thinks a woman is "one of the good ones", there's a woman thinking that she's "not like other girls." Both men and women contribute to the culture, because the vast majority of the actions that contribute to it are not conscious, just results of a life of socialization.

I think when we focus too narrowly on one person, one song, one hurt feeling, we miss the larger picture. It's about the system and the culture, not the people; one person changing won't change the larger culture. However, if we don't change things one small thing at a time, the culture won't change. That's why you have to pick your battles - the battle for Blurred Lines is won, as most everyone that likes pop music that I know of is aware of the controversy. It's unrealistic to try to convince people that don't agree that your point of view is correct, but it's not unrealistic to continually put the issue in front of them in high-profile ways to remind them that it's an important issue.

Keiran said:

Are you saying that women are paid $.77 for every dollar a white man makes (it's like $.59 for Latino women) by choice?

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What I said was that women tend to choose lower paying jobs. Some of that may not be purely a matter of choice, but some of it is. Women who go to college are less likely to take some kinds of higher paying jobs: engineers, computer scientists, mathematicians, and a whole lot of upper level corporate jobs. Also: politicians. These are higher paying jobs and women just don't seem to be as interested in doing them. That seems to me to be more just a matter of interest; there are a lot of high-paying jobs that men take that most women aren't interested in, and since the alternative is often lower-paying jobs, the average pay for women comes out lower. I don't know what the adjusted statistics are for men and women in the same position at the same job, but I imagine they're a lot closer (probably not entirely equal, I'm sure there's some bias present as well as just some statistical noise).

However, I also mentioned that this issue really doesn't matter to me. Even if I'm 100% right and there's no significant difference between the pay of men and women in the same position and job, that just means advocating for equal wages is redundant. A waste of time, but not harmful in itself (provided you are, in fact, advocating for what I just said and not something more). In other words, belaboring this point any more is a waste of your and my time.

No one is saying this.

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I might have misinterpreted. I read it as "we want more rights [than men]," but perhaps she thought there was an inequality in the current balance of male versus female rights. I don't think that's true in the US, or really, any first world country, but she's welcome to think what she wants.

To reach equality, oppressed groups of people are going to need more support than, say, white men. That's not superior treatment,

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Yes, it is. It's justified in some cases, but it's clearly unequal treatment.

it's raising less privileged people up. You can't reach equality without realizing some people need more help than others: just look at how many children standardized education "leaves behind".

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That's an economic disparity, not a disparity due to skin tone or dangly parts. That's a bit different.

More on point, I'll be the first to admit that I'm sure there are problems women face that are unfair. What I am saying is that there are also problems men face that are unfair, and that trying to get women treated as a "disadvantaged class" is the wrong solution to the situation and will just create more unfairness. The solution should be to get these specific problems taken care of so that the unfairness in the system is no longer present.

I know that equality is scary to some men, mostly because they fear losing superiority, but that's something you need to get over before you say you want equality.,

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If you want me to keep this civil, do not straw man my position, and do not condescend to the straw man you're making of my position. I'm arguing my position because I sincerely believe people deserve fair and just treatment, so please don't misrepresent what I'm saying and then insult your misrepresentation.

I have no problems with people being given equal opportunity. I think I've said this several times and all of my arguments are clearly stemming from the position of "I think people should be treated fairly." The issue I have is that the person I was quoting seemed to have an "anti-male" agenda based on some utterly absurd logic and was pushing that quite strongly. I had believed that most of the difference in opinion had arose from different understandings of "fair" and how to get to "fair," but the person I quoted seemed to be suggesting specifically that men ought to be treated unfairly because she "wanted retribution." That's why I stepped in and responded.

gimmepie said:

@Lozzop - Or alternatively, it could refer to a girl who is leading you on without explicitly stating what she wants from you.

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It doesn't matter if that was the intent or not. The lyrics of that awful song are creepy as hell ("I know you want it", "what rhymes with hug me?", "I'll give you something big enough to tear your ass in two"). Whether it was intentional or not, Thicke comes off as a total creep and the lyrics are about as rapey as you can get (there was actually an article I saw a while back comparing the lyrics of the song to things rapists have actually said to survivors, I'll see if I can find it). I'm honestly astounded that you can't see how easily those lyrics can be interpreted as having to do with rape.

And where are all these (mainstream) songs about rape by female artists? Don't strut in here without providing the receipts.

Valoo said:

And where are all these (mainstream) songs about rape by female artists? Don't strut in here without providing the receipts.

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I'm really curious to this too, actually. I told a friend this claim and he is as well.

I mean I can already think of a "pro-feminism" song that got TRASHED by mainstream feminism because of its treatment of black women in the video, so I can't imagine people disregarding songs that are just as bad as Blurred Lines by female artist |:

Lily Allen's Hard Out Here is what I'm referring to btw.

all i'm saying is i'm very vengeful and cynical and as soon as i see another woman get pushed around, i want to throw up and stab something or someone, preferably a man. < see? i'm just vengeful.

yeah, some women choose to sell shoe's instead of fixing trucks and political stuff because:

1. men will treat them badly in those environments.

2. when they decide to have children they don't want a career which could later harass their offspring.

3. politics is full of sexist fat men who are greedy and vile. the few good ones are fired.

i have very harsh views on the world and stuff, it's uncontrollable.

maybe retribution is a bit of a big word, but after all of the things i see and hear, i just feel sick and it feeds the rage.

maybe we choose to be prostitutes to survive, as Keiran said, and it's seriously wrong that we have to do that in order to stay alive.

sure, men get raped, but look around you, some women out there are baying for blood. and maybe it's a problem, but it's the only way women can make a statement. other riots or something diplomatic get's ignored, so yeah, one woman striked a somewhat over-exaggerated blow for all women and the rest joined in.

we wanted equality, no one budged. now we want revenge, simple?

Salamence, who is the "we" that you're referring to that wants revenge? One of the most damaging things we can do for feminism is to paint it exactly as you're painting it now - angry people using arguments that don't hold water to excuse wanting revenge. I understand the rage at some things that happen in this day and age still, and it's human (and also distinctly American) to want revenge when wronged. But as human beings, we should strive for empathy. There are terrible people in this world, but the vast majority of people, men or women, are not terrible. They're just normal people that believe in equality, but have differing opinions on how close we are and how to get the rest of the way.

Can you explain what you mean by "a career which could later harass their offspring"?

Okay, as far as the damn song goes let me make myself clear. I can see how it could potentially be interpreted as being related to rape, but it isn't.

So firstly to Valoo, you're probably right and there are no songs about rape sung by women. I'm not talking about a song about rape though, you can interpret it however you like but that's not what it is. I was talking about songs that overtly sexual, that could be viewed as objectifying men, that are sung by women and have not attracted nearly as much controversy. The fact that this song is sung by men and focuses on women is why there has been so much controversy, that is sexism my friends and a lot of it is coming from feminists who supposedly are fighting against sexism.

Lozzop, I did not once talk about a woman saying no to sex. I was talking about those who drop hints, make sexual remarks, dress provocatively, flirt with you but never expressly say they want anything from you. It appears likely they do, they never say otherwise, but they don't say "have at it" either. That leaves the male, in this case, in a confused little limbo. I never said anything along the lines of "she's saying no, but she still wants it." If she's saying no, she means no and the same is true of men.

@Salamence - You say "we" a lot, but I'm pretty sure you mean "I". It's radical feminism like yours that lead to a once great movement turning to mush - not that we actually need feminism is any way shape or form in contemporary western society. Let me just make a few points

1. "Men will treat them badly in those environments" <--- Stop generalising, men are all different. We are individuals just like women and the majority of us couldn't care less about seeing a female tradie or whatever. The fact of the matter is, most women don't want to be mechanics, or electricians or plumbers or similar.

2. "When they decide to have children they don't want a career which could later harass their offspring." I'm not even entirely sure what this means, but let me tell you now that the jobs you were talking about are no more demanding than any other really and if you're saying that they are and that is why women shouldn't have them you aren't supporting feminism you're contradicting what you claim to be your own beliefs.

3. "Politics is full of sexist fat men who are greedy and vile. the few good ones are fired." Politicians are people too, but yes I actually do somewhat agree with this, but for the love of God stop being so sexist yourself. The thing is though, a lot of the time the female politicians that do poorly are just terrible politicians, feminists kick up a stink about it but men who are bad politicians do poorly in politics too.

Salemence, you do have very harsh views and I understand that you can't exactly control your beliefs but I think you need to be made clear of some things. You're contradicting yourself a lot - that's hurting your own arguments, you're radical approach to feminism goes against what feminism is supposed to stand for and is a big part in why so many people hate feminists and women in the contemporary western society are equal to men, women and men face just as many different stereotypes, trials and tribulations as each other - they are just different issues. Stop focusing on just the issues facing women, or gender at all, and start focusing on injustice and inequality in general and stop trying to make this personal because it's only making things worse. You are entitled to your beliefs, but I feel like you should know a little about mine, which I think are stooped in a bit more fact (although Moogles will probably disagree).

Songs objectifying men here we go,

1. Blah, Blah, Blah - Ke$ha
2. Whatta Man - Salt N' Peppa ft. En Vogue
3. How Many Licks - Lil' Kim (oh look, that's two female rappers in a row).
4. Men - Forester Sisters
5. If I Were a Boy - Beyoncé
6. Do It Like a Dude - Jessie J
7. Boots and Boys - Ke$ha (look who's back, a popular mainstream artist who degrades men. This time she equates our value to that of shoes).

There's more, that will do for now though. Each and every one of those objectifies men or is sexist towards men in some way. There's your receipts, enjoy.

Salamence62 said:

all i'm saying is i'm very vengeful and cynical and as soon as i see another woman get pushed around, i want to throw up and stab something or someone, preferably a man. < see? i'm just vengeful.

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I suggest you get professional help for your anger management issues. Seriously. It's not healthy. Only sadists take pleasure in seeing others harmed.

Salamence62 said:

yeah, some women choose to sell shoe's instead of fixing trucks and political stuff because:

1. men will treat them badly in those environments.

2. when they decide to have children they don't want a career which could later harass their offspring.

3. politics is full of sexist fat men who are greedy and vile. the few good ones are fired.

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Will you quit with the generalizing? It's not only helpful for your argument, but it's also very irrational too. Let me put it bluntly: people are unique. Everyone is different. You cannot judge one person on the actions of another. As an individual, I see your view and your beliefs as very ugly. They're harmful, not only to others but to yourself as well. Again, seek help.

Salamence62 said:

i have very harsh views on the world and stuff, it's uncontrollable.

maybe retribution is a bit of a big word, but after all of the things i see and hear, i just feel sick and it feeds the rage.

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See my above suggestion for seeking help.

Salamence62 said:

maybe we choose to be prostitutes to survive, as Keiran said, and it's seriously wrong that we have to do that in order to stay alive.

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There is a huge difference between choosing to do something because you enjoy doing it, and being forced to do something that you don't enjoy. And I guarantee you, there are plenty of people, both men and women, in the porn industry that not only choose to do what they do but enjoy it as well. And considering the risks involved, they should be admired for their bravery.

Salamence62 said:

sure, men get raped,

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Great to see that you acknowledge that men can be sexually assaulted. Then why did you make the statement that women do not rape men in the first place if you knew the truth? This is where your anger management issues really harms you.

Salamence62 said:

some women out there are baying for blood. and maybe it's a problem, but it's the only way women can make a statement.

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I don't think you actually belief this statement. I think you're using your anger to justify any action by any woman that harms a man. I really haven't seen such ugly sexist attitudes in a long time. Congratulations.

Salamence62 said:

we I wanted equality, no one budged. now we I want revenge, simple?

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There, I corrected this for you.

gimmepie said:

Okay, as far as the damn song goes let me make myself clear. I can see how it could potentially be interpreted as being related to rape, but it isn't.

So firstly to Valoo, you're probably right and there are no songs about rape sung by women. I'm not talking about a song about rape though, you can interpret it however you like but that's not what it is.

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Did... did you read my post? I don't care if there was some glorious hidden meaning. Here are the comparisons between the lyrics of Blurred Lines and quotes from rapists; if you still can't see how problematic the song's lyrics are then I don't know what to tell you.

I was talking about songs that overtly sexual, that could be viewed as objectifying men, that are sung by women and have not attracted nearly as much controversy. The fact that this song is sung by men and focuses on women is why there has been so much controversy, that is sexism my friends and a lot of it is coming from feminists who supposedly are fighting against sexism.

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Are you for real? Blurred Lines attracted controversy because it's lyrics can very easily be interpreted as having to do with rape and because the song actually DOES objectify women through its lyrics ("baby you're an animal" etc.) and its awful video where three men strut around in suits singing to naked women with glazed expressions. There is a huge difference between a song about sex (like those songs that you named) and a song that completely degrades women.

PervertedPikachu said:

I'd just like to say I completely agree with the OP and do not support feminism, only equality. They are not the same things to me. One is rights for everyone and the other side only cares about the situation of women, with extremes advocating revenge and superiority.

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Um, spoiler alert: they are. Like, you can harp on about how feminism isn't about equality but... it is. By like, definition. I mean this sort of stance really confuses me because the definition of feminism is literally wanting equal rights for men and women. Read my post. If you have problems with the actions of extreme feminists (which I always find kind of ridiculous - why is it only feminism that has its extremists attacked? There are just as many dumb activists for every other movement) then disagree all you want, but that shouldn't stop you from agreeing with feminism's basic goal.

Can I ask why you don't support feminism?

Not that I think even moderates will achieve equality. If you want everyone to be treated the same then singling out "minorities" for special treatment does not achieve that.

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"Special treatment"? Seriously? This reeks of privilege. Minorities are "singled out" because they are oppressed and want equal rights. This sort of thing came up in the coming out thread too and I think it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, honestly. Our society is not open-minded enough for an "ignore the inequality, try and be a good person or something" approach.

Gimmepie's list is a good example of how when people are so mad about a song degrading women is made yet all the sexist crap about men goes unnoticed.

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Wow it's almost as if the problems women face are more prevalent and damaging than those that men face. And anyway, many of the problems that men face have to do with the gender roles that feminists are trying to abolish.


You two are so bitter, I honestly feel kind of bad for you. What happened? Did the feminists steal Christmas when you were younger or something? I think both of you need to stop treating these issues as if they're a personal attack on men; like it or not, men are more privileged and focusing on women's rights is more important right now.