Feminism

[Keiran]

I don't think a group of individuals should be forcibly educated on something only a fraction of them are guilty of.

The reason why "we should teach men not to rape" is a valid statement is because, as a society, we currently teach men they deserve sex from women. People aren't asking for men to be required to take classes on how not to rape, but suggest the messages our culture(s) give about sex be changed. At the same time, we're taught to demonize women who have/enjoy sex (just look at how female music artists that write sexual lyrics are viewed by the media - especially women of color - compared to men that write songs like Blurred Lines).

If you take a look at dating sites a large number of men answer questions like "do you believe someone is obligated to have sex with you?" with a yes. Throughout last year a song with lyrics such as "I know you want it" topped the charts, even. Our culture teaches men that sex is a prize, and being nice is all you have to do to earn it.

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

How... How else are we going to educate the fraction of them who might assault somebody?

The reason why "we should teach men not to rape" is a valid statement is because, as a society, we currently teach men they deserve sex from women. People aren't asking for men to be required to take classes on how not to rape, but suggest the messages our culture(s) give about sex be changed. At the same time, we're taught to demonize women who have/enjoy sex (just look at how female music artists that write sexual lyrics are viewed by the media - especially women of color - compared to men that write songs like Blurred Lines).

If you take a look at dating sites a large number of men answer questions like "do you believe someone is obligated to have sex with you?" with a yes. Throughout last year a song with lyrics such as "I know you want it" topped the charts, even. Our culture teaches men that sex is a prize, and being nice is all you have to do to earn it.

Why isn't it a valid statement? Because male rapists are only a portion of the population. Female rapists are also a portion of the population as well; does that mean we should educate all women not to rape as well? After all, wouldn't it be fair?

By the way, there's more than a few people (both men and women, myself included) who get off to someone wanting it, so there's that too.

 

[Star-Lord]

I suppose I wasn't very clear, but I'm a huge supporter of education period. I said we have to educate the entire male population instead of being stagnant and just teaching a few because "only a few do it". It makes perfect sense that everybody should be educated as well :) I mean the majority of rapists are men it just seems natural for the discussion to be centred around it. Sorry for not being clear I guess?

e: I'm diving in

People who rape should be responsible for their rapes. Culture teaches people not to rape via laws and prison sentences. I know there's probably a better method, but I can't honestly think of it at this time - there's probably a deeper, more systemic issue.

Ding! I think this is spot-on. I mean most normal people are already completely aware that rape is bad and our society doesn't say that we can necessarily get away with it. We have legal statutes in place to protect and punish people. That being said, it's still happening to such a degree. People aren't reporting as well, so there has to be a systemic issue with it.

As it stands though men should not be held responsible for rape. People who rape should be held responsible. People in general should understand that raping people is wrong. And yes, women can rape too.

I'll agree, because it's true, but offer something in turn. The overwhelming majority of rapists are men. It's not to say female rapists don't exist, but common sense tells us more men rape then women. Now if we can't exact proper punishment for a male rapist despite them being more widespread and common, how do we crush the idea that women can rape as well? It seems really frivolous to me to go "WELL WHAT ABOUT FEMALE RAPISTS" during this sort of discussion because they're such a non-issue in comparison to the male ones? That's a really harsh way of wording it but, as a society are more inclined to worry about men being rapists than women.

idk it's just grating when people go NOT ALL MEN RAPE AND WOMEN RAPE TOO as a defence mechanism because people who are trying to explain how rape works in our society are already completely well aware.

I don't really agree with "preventing the situation first" issue since it's more than just "getting yourself in a bad situation". Not all rapes are caused by those kinds of situations, and those kinds of situations don't necessarily lead to rape. Instead, I think it's important to remember that it's the rapist who is the offender here, and the rapist should deal with the consequences of raping someone. Blaming the victim ignores that the rapist raped at all. What is really appalling is that quite a few times women rapists get off the hook easier than men because people blame men's sexuality and all that. Which is kind of insane.

A+ I encourage everyone to read this. I've never personally heard of the last part happening (Although I can't say I wouldn't be very surprised) but yeah, that's something we societally have to do about gender roles and rape period. Like I said, if we can't take a female victim seriously, and then consequently go "she should have done x/y/z" to defend herself, how do we take men seriously?

Yes it's the rapists fault completely but even with strict prison sentences and intensive education I think there will be sick people who prey upon others, or those that are somehow impaired by alcohol or drugs. Rape will always be a danger. As such, I agree with an above poster that everyone should attempt to minimise the risk they are willing to expose themselves to.

I just wanted to make it clear because the other poster certainly alluded to it that I'm not saying people shouldn't defend themselves. The way our society is we have to defend ourselves, but applying that as an excuse or a reason to why someone got raped is wrong. That was my point.

It's not untrue that most men would like to have sex, especially if the woman is attractive. Even if the woman is completely repulsive and rape was the only way she could have intercourse a female rapist could easily play to the stereotype that of course only men are the ones who are sexually charged while women are uninterested, defenceless victims... I am sexually charged but I know not to rape anyone, unfortunately a few evil men do not know this and give us all a bad name.

I don't get the first bit but regarding the latter, that's just something that you need to deal with, really. I mean I'm gay and some women still glance at me when they think I'm getting to close to a point where they're uncomfortable or whatever. Bad apple spoils the bunch? Yeah. But in my mind I know I'm not a rapist so having girls wary of me and being careful doesn't hurt my ego lol. Men have a bad name, yes, but if you know you're a good person I don't see why that bothers you.

Was this supposed to relate to feminism or something?

Women are constantly getting raped? How does it not relate to feminism? It's a bit more of a broad topic but it still holds to the fundamental ideas of feminism at its core.

Update: Is there anything wrong with being nice and a 'gentlemen' for the purpose of desiring sex? Admittedly it's not the most noble of reasons but as long as you don't rape anyone I don't think there's anything wrong with that... Being abusive when you get rejected from a woman who you treat nicely and therefore would wish to have sex with is not acceptable, but if you act maturely, accept your failure and just move on I don't see a problem. I don't expect sex from women, but y'know, if you want to do it that would be great.

Nothing particularly "wrong" with it as long as you're not getting to levels of downright chauvinism but it is insanely shallow if you only put on your "gentleman" persona to get sex and you act differently in your day-to-day. Different people like different things though. Some people really like a gentleman, and some people really just want to focus on looks. Everyone has different preferences, and that's something that makes us a little more interesting.

 

[Keiran]

Why isn't it a valid statement? Because male rapists are only a portion of the population. Female rapists are also a portion of the population as well; does that mean we should educate all women not to rape as well? After all, wouldn't it be fair?

By the way, there's more than a few people (both men and women, myself included) who get off to someone wanting it, so there's that too.

Our culture/society doesn't actively teach women they deserve sex like we do for males. It's superfluous to say we should teach women not to rape - we already do. This isn't an issue of equality as much as it is an endeavour to fix a problematic aspect of our culture. That was the point of my previous post.

Yes, there is a small portion of people that are naturally awful, including women, that rape. But the fact that the amount of male on female rape compared to other kinds is so high is indicative of a cultural problem.

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

Our culture/society doesn't actively teach women they deserve sex like we do for males. It's superfluous to say we should teach women not to rape - we already do. This isn't an issue of equality as much as it is an endeavour to fix a problematic aspect of our culture. That was the point of my previous post.

Yes, there is a small portion of people that are naturally awful, including women, that rape. But the fact that the amount of male on female rape compared to other kinds is so high is indicative of a cultural problem.

I think it can be largely accredited to gender roles that were assumed by humans since before we descended from apes. Man goes and hunts, protects the home, women cares for kids and births/nurses etc. Obviously it's not like that now, but the dominant/submissive sort of relationship was largely assumed for thousands of years.

Some women do like being in the submissive role of a consenting sexual relationship (I speak from experience). I think that a long, long time ago some man took that too far and got the whole ball rolling, and we have this mess of rape and ♥♥♥♥ that you don't hardly see in other species.

 

[Star-Lord]

I think it can be largely accredited to gender roles that were assumed by humans since before we descended from apes. Man goes and hunts, protects the home, women cares for kids and births/nurses etc. Obviously it's not like that now, but the dominant/submissive sort of relationship was largely assumed for thousands of years.

Probably.

Some women do like being in the submissive role of a consenting sexual relationship (I speak from experience). I think that a long, long time ago some man took that too far and got the whole ball rolling, and we have this mess of rape and ♥♥♥♥ that you don't hardly see in other species.

Not all women! Some women like being a dominatrix or whatever - some men in turn also like being submissive in their sexual relationships. Everybody is different. Regarding your latter half though: rape is something that happens in primates. While I argue that the term "rape" can really be applied to the animal world because there isn't an understanding of consent laws, but forced copulation exists all the same. For the purposes of this discussion I'll say rape.

It happens with reptiles
It happens in other species as well (including ducks but I can't find a link right now)

 

[twocows]

Probably.



Not all women! Some women like being a dominatrix or whatever - some men in turn also like being submissive in their sexual relationships. Everybody is different. Regarding your latter half though: rape is something that happens in primates. While I argue that the term "rape" can really be applied to the animal world because there isn't an understanding of consent laws, but forced copulation exists all the same. For the purposes of this discussion I'll say rape.

It happens with reptiles
It happens in other species as well (including ducks but I can't find a link right now)

Bit of a tangent here, but I think it's interesting, so I'll post it.

Rape does exist in the animal world. I think the key difference is that in the animal world, it's not really a matter of ethics. What animals do to each other really has no ethical meaning at all. But rape does exist, because we can see species that have evolved defenses against it (many, in fact, from certain kinds of ducks to bedbugs). These defenses have an evolutionary advantage to females: the goal of males is usually to mate with as many females as possible, whereas the goal of females is to only mate with males that seem like they will provide good offspring (since child-rearing is a very consuming task that can often result in death).

On the other hand, a lot of species have males evolved to be better rapists. I mentioned bedbugs; I heard a report a few weeks ago about how females evolved defenses to help them choose their mates. Certain males adapted by forgoing mating in favor of just stabbing the female in the abdomen to inject their payload. This gave them such a huge evolutionary advantage that this trait won out completely and now this is the primary way that bedbugs mate. Females, in turn, evolved defenses against this, both defenses against damage (it's very violent and can easily kill the female) and defenses to get rid of male payloads they don't want by diverting it out and away from their eggs. It's like an arms race. Biology is fascinating.

Anyway, sorry for going a bit off-topic there, just thought it was kind of interesting.

 

[Kanzler]

I think it's rather presumptuous to say that our culture teaches this but not that. In any case, my disdain for the phrase "men should be taught not to rape" comes from how callous and insensitive the phrase is. I don't think you generally talk to people like that. The fact that you could say something like that and not bat an eyelash thinking about is telling about how one-sided the discourse is. "Black people should be taught not to steal" - nope. (but isn't society teaching black people that they should steal because how they're represented in the media and role models in certain subcultures etc etc)

Some women do like being in the submissive role of a consenting sexual relationship (I speak from experience).

ohohohoho ;D

seriously though this fear of raping someone is affecting my relationships and i really want to get rid of it

i just feel bombarded with messages telling me that i'm a (potential) rapist and that i should keep my pants together otherwise i lose control and become a heartless bastard

it's something we've talked about but i feel constantly that society is judging me even though she says things will be okay and it's something she wants, i guess it's my own fault i can't move past those fears

what i don't like about feminism is how it can be one-sided and it ends up shaming me even though there are things me and my other have consented to and communicated about. that's feminism as it is, and that's how i experience it. is it really just about equality? not when it places these romantic impasses in my relationships. it's perfectly fine to not want to hurt her, but to still have these lingering anxieties even after we've talked about it? an invasion of a private bedroom, methinks.

feminism, as i've experienced it, can go too far with little regard for the messages it's sending to others. what is my definition of feminism you might ask? - well that's not so relevant in this case, now is it, aren't these messages relayed to me in the name of feminism?

 

[Star-Lord]

twocow's post is neat. I alluded to it because I said animals don't really have an understanding of consent laws (well I made a typo) but yeah.

I think it's rather presumptuous to say that our culture teaches this but not that. In any case, my disdain for the phrase "men should be taught not to rape" comes from how callous and insensitive the phrase is. I don't think you generally talk to people like that. The fact that you could say something like that and not bat an eyelash thinking about is telling about how one-sided the discourse is. "Black people should be taught not to steal" - nope. (but isn't society teaching black people that they should steal because how they're represented in the media and role models in certain subcultures etc etc)

Except that these aren't comparable. One is perpetuating racial stereotypes which does nothing to help while the other is taking a stab at eliminating gender based violence. Kanzler I think you're taking this way too personally and not looking at the big picture. I'm a man but I'm not getting my underwear in a twist over it?

The rest

You really... need to go seek help or something. I'm not kidding. This is something that you should discuss with a professional (or a friend really) who can offer insight because that's some crazy paranoia that people should not have in their minds. Like at all.

 

[Kanzler]

Except that these aren't comparable. One is perpetuating racial stereotypes which does nothing to help while the other is taking a stab at eliminating gender based violence. Kanzler I think you're taking this way too personally and not looking at the big picture. I'm a man but I'm not getting my underwear in a twist over it?

Well, yes, I'm not saying that one phrase represents the big picture, but the details matter too. And how are they not comparable? They're, in my mind, gross overstatements that don't need to be said - but for the second phrase you think it's fine because it's "taking a stab" at doing something. When you say "teach black people not to steal" that's perpetuating the racial stereotype that black people steal but when you say "teach men not to rape" that's not perpetuating a sexual stereotype that men rape? Black people steal. Men rape. But to say a phrase like that is telling somebody just because of the colour of their skin or the configuration of their genitals that they have a tendency to do something they will probably never do in their life. If people can't bother to see that, well, they have a right to say whatever they want. But I really don't think it's something worth saying.

Is it just the simple matter of me getting my underwear in a twist? In that case there's nothing more I can say about this.

You really... need to go seek help or something. I'm not kidding. This is something that you should discuss with a professional (or a friend really) who can offer insight because that's some crazy paranoia that people should not have in their minds. Like at all.

Well then. I don't like to think that I'm paranoid, more so a person who doesn't want to and tries hard not to hurt those he loves. I think it'd be smarter and easier to just disregard all fishy parts instead of accepting it all because feminism is all sunshine and rainbows. I take feminism seriously because that's what people tell me to do, but really, I don't think it's for me. I'll let the social justice people do their own thing and try my best to avoid the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on facebook and reddit and even here sometimes. It's best to be critical of everything.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

The reason why Kanzler doesn't like the idea of "Men being taught not to rape" is that is assumes that men are born as rapists (which is a horrible thing to be) and that, like dogs, must be taught to behave. This is a disgusting viewpoint. Also, it targets men as if women can't be rapists or something.

What I meant by "society teaches people not to rape" was that society lays out that rape is wrong. I do not mean to imply that humans are born rapists. In society, rapists are shunned for their behaviour. In fact, this is why I disagree with the concept of "rape culture" because most people, male and female, fight against the concept of objectification of women and their sexuality, which shows that honestly, if "Rape culture" even exists, it's not very effective.

All in all though rapists are a minority. We should not be "teaching" any group of people blindly not to rape because it generalizes that group of people as rapists. It's the same problem I have with the "teach women to not get into those kinds of situations" argument. This shows a great hypocrisy in that many people will call the latter "victim blaming" but will advocate for the former.

You really... need to go seek help or something. I'm not kidding. This is something that you should discuss with a professional (or a friend really) who can offer insight because that's some crazy paranoia that people should not have in their minds. Like at all.

Stop attacking other people's character because you don't agree with them. I'm disgusted with your behaviour in these threads. Stop being so arrogant.

 

[Star-Lord]

The reason why Kanzler doesn't like the idea of "Men being taught not to rape" is that is assumes that men are born as rapists (which is a horrible thing to be) and that, like dogs, must be taught to behave. This is a disgusting viewpoint. Also, it targets men as if women can't be rapists or something.

Noooo this means that men have the capability to rape (so do women so don't start, we mainly see men raping people though.) and so that we should teach them that it's not ok. We don't automatically label them as rapists. Rapist is a societal label (not sure about legal) that is given after someone sexually assaults another person.

All in all though rapists are a minority. We should not be "teaching" any group of people blindly not to rape because it generalizes that group of people as rapists. It's the same problem I have with the "teach women to not get into those kinds of situations" argument. This shows a great hypocrisy in that many people will call the latter "victim blaming" but will advocate for the former.

Don't you think the priorities are backwards here? "Generalizing that a group of people have the ability to rape someone" vs. "LOWERING RAPE?" I've said something similar before in this thread, but I cannot believe that his has to be said again.

Wait actually. Rape is a crime. Why should we not teach people not... to do a crime? That's how simple the argument is imo.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Noooo this means that men have the capability to rape (so do women so don't start, we mainly see men raping people though.) and so that we should teach them that it's not ok. We don't automatically label them as rapists. Rapist is a societal label (not sure about legal) that is given after someone sexually assaults another person.

So why aren't we saying that women shouldn't rape either? Women have the "capability" to rape too. In addition, culture already tells us that rape is wrong by imposing hard prison sentences on rapists as well as alienating rapists from others. And yes, men even feel that rape is wrong! How about that.

Don't you think the priorities are backwards here? "Generalizing that a group of people have the ability to rape someone" vs. "LOWERING RAPE?" I've said something similar before in this thread, but I cannot believe that his has to be said again.

Perhaps some people believe that not all men should be identified as potential rapists. Targeting all men to eliminate rape won't even eliminate rape anyways because as mentioned before, women can, and have raped as well.

 

[Rogue planet]

couldn't resist finally posting.. god save me

So why aren't we saying that women shouldn't rape either? Women have the "capability" to rape too.

They do, but you can't seriously be thinking that the cases of women raping men is anywhere near the amount of cases men rape women... what you say is true, it won't eliminate rape because yes women are capable to. But that doesn't mean more focus should not be put on the men....

In addition, culture already tells us that rape is wrong by imposing hard prison sentences on rapists as well as alienating rapists from others. And yes, men even feel that rape is wrong! How about that.

You mean to tell me you haven't heard about all the cases where rapists get minimal punishment, or no punishment at all. You don't even need to google this to know it. In fact I don't even believe you if you say that you haven't heard of this before. Let's not mention the fact that there have been so many reports showing that a very large proportion of rapes do not get reported, or the police don't take it seriously, or the victims are pressured to drop charges. If they beat the odds and actually manage to get to the stage of bringing it to court, you'd be damn lucky if there's actually any meaningful results from it.

Hard jail time? Alienating rapists? Please...

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

couldn't resist finally posting.. god save me

They do, but you can't seriously be thinking that the cases of women raping men is anywhere near the amount of cases men rape women... what you say is true, it won't eliminate rape because yes women are capable to. But that doesn't mean more focus should not be put on the men....

I am not. I am saying that it is wrong to claim that all men are rapists. Our focus shouldn't be on men or women. It should be on rapists. I was calling out Moogles flawed statement.

You mean to tell me you haven't heard about all the cases where rapists get minimal punishment, or no punishment at all. You don't even need to google this to know it. In fact I don't even believe you if you say that you haven't heard of this before. Let's not mention the fact that there have been so many reports showing that a very large proportion of rapes do not get reported, or the police don't take it seriously, or the victims are pressured to drop charges.

Hard jail time? Alienating rapists? Please...

I encourage you to go out and ask a large sample of men to see whether rape is okay or not. Upon realizing that the vast majority, if not all of them, believe that it is morally wrong and rapists should be punished, I think you may want to redact your stance on how perhaps we shouldn't be punishing all men for something that a minority of men do.

While all of those things may be true, let's ask ourselves a few questions.

Let's not mention the fact that there have been so many reports showing that a very large proportion of rapes do not get reported

or the victims are pressured to drop charges

Why do you think this is?

Do you think perhaps that it is, I dunno, because the rapist may pose a threat to the person's life or well being? Do you think that it is because in many cases, the victim knows who the rapist is, knows that they know where the victim lives, knows where the victim works, knows how to find them?

Have you considered that maybe the rapist is an abusive force that pushes the person into submission outside of just sex, and not necessarily all men?

In fact, here's some reasons listing other reasons outside of society that may influence someone's urge to report a rapist.

The only article I could find about the public doing such a thing was from The Daily Mail which is a dubious source.

or the police don't take it seriously,

Can you provide some statistics about this one? I've never heard about this.

 

[Kanzler]

Moogles, that's not the point.

It's not about whether or not we as a society do or do not do considering x y z problem. It's the insinuation behind those words and how carelessly they're thrown about. Saying "men should be taught not to rape" is different from "we need to do more about communicating to our youth that rape is unacceptable". The former is not simply a more convenient way of saying the latter, it's hostile. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and the phrase comes across as finger-pointing and shaming, even though there's nothing wrong with each word or idea in the phrase by itself. It's not the argument, it's the attitude.

And tying this back to the issue of feminism, that's why I don't fully identify with it. The voices that speak on behalf of feminism don't always have a positive and inclusive attitude, even though that's one of their claims (that'll get me onto another rant about duplicity, hypocrisy, the superficiality of our times, and good faith but whatever). Feminism has great ideals, but many of its proponents, in my view, are either out of touch or not open-minded. But hey, if I think about it, that has nothing to do with feminism - aren't people in general just usually out of touch and close-minded? People just suck I guess, and it shows up in feminism just as much as it shows up everywhere else :P

 

[Rogue planet]

I am not. I am saying that it is wrong to claim that all men are rapists. Our focus shouldn't be on men or women. It should be on rapists. I was calling out Moogles flawed statement.

I see what you're saying, and it's not worth arguing over. But it's not a fallacy to say a focus should be on men when the vast majority of perpetrators are men.

I encourage you to go out and ask a large sample of men to see whether rape is okay or not. Upon realizing that the vast majority, if not all of them, believe that it is morally wrong and rapists should be punished, I think you may want to redact your stance on how perhaps we shouldn't be punishing all men for something that a minority of men do.

Except I didn't say we should be punishing all men for anything. I merely pointed out how your idea that hard jail time and alienation is given to rapists simply is not true. And yeah the vast majority of men would say that, but there have also been plenty of surveys showing that a good portion of people (both men and women) believe victims deserve being raped depending on the situation. Or more importantly, a large amount of people don't think it's rape in certain situations when technically it is. You can ask a lot of men if they think rape is okay, as you said, none of them are going to say yes. Statistics speak for themselves though, rape still happens in large numbers, and a lot of men think it's okay/not rape. Women too, but a significantly higher proportion of men believe this.

Why do you think this is?

Do you think perhaps that it is, I dunno, because the rapist may pose a threat to the person's life or well being? Do you think that it is because in many cases, the victim knows who the rapist is, knows that they know where the victim lives, knows where the victim works, knows how to find them?

Have you considered that maybe the rapist is an abusive force that pushes the person into submission outside of just sex, and not necessarily all men?

What's your point? I'm sure that's the case in plenty of situations, there are various reasons. That's not to say that societal pressure is non-existant, there are a million and one reasons but that doesn't make any one of them less important. Also your source is from a book first published in 1978... bit outdated

also don't forget we're not all from the USA, the US isn't perfect but it's definitely not the worst place out there.

As for police not taking it seriously in a lot of cases. Come on. You might as well say there's no proof there's institutional racism throughout the police. Google it, it's in your face.

 

[twocows]

As for police not taking it seriously in a lot of cases. Come on. You might as well say there's no proof there's institutional racism throughout the police. Google it, it's in your face.

Anecdotes do not a systemic problem make. There are a lot of police because there are a lot of people; by sheer force of numbers, some of them are bound to be some varying degree of jerk.

 

[Grey Wind]

I encourage you to go out and ask a large sample of men to see whether rape is okay or not.

Ah! A study actually did just this and found that men condoned rape when it was phrased differently. A number of men were asked questions like "would you pressure your partner into sex" and "would you have sex with someone who was too drunk to give consent" and a large number of them answered yes. This is what people mean when saying that we should teach men not to rape - it's primarily about teaching the importance of consent, not treating them like dogs who need to be told not to assault women walking down the street.


Also, I wish people would stop saying things like "hmmph i'm an equalist, not a feminist". Like... you do realise feminism isn't a club, right? There are no terms and conditions to sign, we don't meet for tea on Sunday to discuss our next move. Feminism is, at its core, the belief that men and women should be equal, and if you agree with this then there's little reason that you shouldn't identify as one.

 

[twocows]

This is worth checking out, including the Reddit comments there (I don't like Reddit, but I found this story and the responses to be pretty spot-on). Careful, the videos are NSFW.

https://www.inquisitr.com/1219579/feminism-protest-shows-why-the-movement-is-dying/

Thoughts?